The Gold Rose: An Edward of Angoulême timeline
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Conquer all of Scotland (or a good part) and create an earlier Kingdom of Britain.
After Edward V "The Uniter" conquers Scotland and establishes a stranglehold over the British Isles, his children and descendants will finish the job by taking all of France.
And he could have Henry Bolingbroke help in Ireland, the man was a truly talented warrior after all.
Joan of Kent
Joan of Kent
Joan of Kent (29 September 1327 - 3 April 1386), known as the Fair Maid of Kent, was queen consort of England from June to September 1377 as the wife of King Edward IV. She was 4th countess of Kent and 5th baroness Wake of Liddell in her own right from 1352 to 1386. She was the mother of King Edward V.
Early life
Joan was born on 29 September 1327. She was the daughter of Edmund of Woodstock, 1st earl of Kent, and Margaret Wake, suo jure 3rd baroness Wake of Liddell. Edmund was the third surviving son of King Edward I of England and was born of the king's second marriage to Margaret of France. Joan was thus a half-niece of King Edward II and a half-first cousin of King Edward III.
Edward II was deposed and murdered by his wife, Queen Isabella, and her lover, Roger Mortimer, 1st earl of March, in 1327. Mortimer and Isabella took control of the government in the name of Edward and Isabella's eldest son, who was crowned Edward III. Edmund remained loyal to his half-brother, Edward II, and was tricked into believing that Edward II was still alive. In 1330, Edmund planned to find Edward II and restore him to the throne. These plans were enough for Mortimer and Isabella to declare Edmund guilty of treason against Edward III and execute him. Edmund's widow and their four children, including Joan, were arrested, their household was disbanded, their property seized, and their titles forfeited. The children were threatened with placement in religious establishments, but Edward III brought down Mortimer and Isabella's regency and took control of the government just months later, restoring his Kent cousins to good graces.
The execution of Joan's father and the near destruction of the Kent family had an enormous effect on Joan's life. Her mother grew obsessed with the management of the family estates and left her children to be raised in the royal household. Joan received a royal education and was surrounded by her peers, but never had a place to call home. The royal nursery traveled with Edward III's wife, Queen Philippa, who was on the move almost constantly, as she insisted on going with her husband on campaign. The instability in Joan's early life, from her father's execution to her mother's absence and the itinerant nature of her life as part of the royal household, left Joan without a strong chaperone and ultimately led her into one of medieval England's greatest scandals.
First marriages
Joan married Sir Thomas Holland in 1340. She was just 13 and went through with the marriage without the consent of her family. Holland joined Edward III's campaign to the continent later that same year. Either unaware of the marriage or under the impression that Holland had died on campaign, Joan's mother arranged for Joan to marry William Montagu, then-heir to the earldom of Salisbury, in 1341. Joan's first marriage was not revealed until Holland returned in 1348, by which time Montagu had succeeded as 2nd earl of Salisbury and become one of the most powerful figures in the realm. Salisbury would not allow Joan to go to Holland or accept that his marriage was invalid until Pope Clement VI intervened. Joan's marriage to Salisbury was annulled. She and Holland were remarried to ensure the validity of their union.
Holland, the second son of a Lancastrian knight who became a minor baron, was an unusual match for a woman of Joan's rank. Their clandestine marriage and the bigamy scandal that erupted because of it made them social pariahs. Joan was not allowed to attend her brother's wedding and her mother pushed her away entirely, believing that Joan had brought shame upon the whole Kent family. Joan was isolated even from her husband, as the war with France repeatedly took him to the continent. It was a remarkably lonely existence for the granddaughter of a king.
In 1352, Joan's brother died childless. She inherited the Kent estates and was transformed into one of the wealthiest and most influential women in England.
Countess, princess, queen
Holland had little interest in estate management and continued regular service in France even after he became earl of Kent jure uxoris. Joan took advantage of her change in circumstances, though, and began joining her husband on campaign so that they could be together more often. Their family grew rapidly, but in 1360 Holland died.
In 1361, Edward of Woodstock, prince of Wales, known as the Black Prince, took an interest in Joan, who was a widow in her early 30s. It was a controversial match for the Black Prince, who was Joan's first cousin once removed and who, as the victor of the Battle of Poitiers and heir to the English throne, could have most any foreign princess of his choosing. They entered into a marriage contract without the consent of the king, but Edward III appears to have not been upset by this, as he helped them secure the four dispensations required for them to legally wed.
Joan became princess of Wales and of Aquitaine through her marriage to the Black Prince. The marriage was an immediate boon for Joan's children from her first marriage, as the Black Prince was childless at the time of his marriage to Joan and had to use his Holland stepchildren to make the sorts of marriage alliances typical for the great men of the era. Joan and the Black Prince moved to Gascony in 1362 and stayed there for nine years. They had two sons, including future King Edward V, before moving back to England in 1371. The Black Prince was seriously ill by this time and would remain so for most of the rest of his life.
Edward III died in June 1377. He was succeeded by the Black Prince as King Edward IV, but the new king's health was extremely poor and he died just 100 days later, which brought his and Joan's eldest son to the throne as Edward V. This became known as the Year of the Three Edwards. Joan's consortship is the second-shortest in English history, longer only than that of Świętosława of Poland, the uncrowned queen of the Danish King Sweyn Forkbeard, who conquered England and ruled over it for just over a month before he died suddenly.
The queen's great matter
The succession of Edward V put Joan in a difficult position. England had seen just two other minorities since the Norman Conquest and neither had left Joan a template to follow as the mother of a young king. In 1220, Isabella of Angoulême remarried, returned to France, and left her young son, King Henry III, in the custody of his councilors. In the late 1320s, Isabella of France rebelled against her own husband and co-ruled the kingdom in the name of her teenage son, Edward III, alongside her lover. The legacy of Isabella of France was especially difficult for Joan, as her father had been a victim of the Mortimer regency. Joan only wanted to arrange a good marriage for Edward V and then retire from public life, avoiding politics for fear of drawing comparisons to Isabella of France.
Joan's involvement in Edward's marriage was unremarkable at first. She had helped arrange all of her other children's marriages and was a calm, quiet figure with a gift for bringing people together, which made her a natural negotiator. Her complicated and controversial marital history made her aware of the difficulties that personal scandal could bring, which predisposed her toward staunchly traditional matches for each of her children. For Edward, this meant a foreign princess. Involving herself in negotiations with foreign powers, however, brought Joan into politics in a way that she had hoped to avoid.
King Charles V of France twice offered his daughters as prospective brides. First, his daughter Marie was proposed as part of a far-reaching deal to end the war between England and France. The English were initially open to peace talks, but Charles's terms were unacceptable and then Marie died in late 1377. Charles tried again in 1378 with his other daughter, Isabella, but the English had lost interest in peace negotiations. Joan approved of the possible French marriage, but she would not push back against the English political establishment as it became more hawkish. The chance for such a match vanished when Isabella then died young as well.
English missions to Hainaut and the Holy Roman Empire in 1378 came back empty-handed. King Robert II of Scotland offered his daughter, Egidia, who was said to be the most beautiful girl in Scotland, but the English thought there was little diplomatic gain to be had. Bernabò Visconti, lord of Milan, offered an enormous dowry for his daughter, Catarina, but it came too late. In summer 1378, England negotiated an alliance with Navarre that included Edward's betrothal to one of the daughters of King Charles II of Navarre.
Joan strongly supported a Navarrese marriage. Charles of Navarre was a king in his own right, had a claim to the French crown, and his wife, who had died years earlier, was a daughter of the first Valois king. Their daughters were thus descended from the fleur-de-lis on both sides, a remarkably prestigious background. The marriage arrangement was soon rendered moot, though, as the French captured Château de Breteuil, the home of Charles's young children, and made his daughters prisoners of the French crown later that year.
As uncertainty over the Anglo-Navarrese alliance grew, Joan lobbied John of Gaunt, duke of Lancaster and lord regent of England, to reopen the search for a bride. Gaunt belatedly responded to the Milanese offer, but this drew the attention of Pope Urban VI, who had come into conflict with the Visconti family. Urban pushed England to open talks with the Empire, hoping that he could bring together his two greatest supporters in the midst of the Western Schism. An imperial princess was the most prestigious possible marriage that Edward could make, which brought Joan's strong support. Talks began to wed Edward and Anna of Bohemia, daughter of the late Emperor Karel IV and half-sister of King Václav IV of Bohemia, who had already been elected king of the Romans in hopes of being crowned emperor.
Preliminary negotiations between England and the Empire went smoothly in 1380 and advanced in 1381. A series of talks were set to conclude in London in summer 1381 when the Revolt of the Towns broke out. Its events delayed the imperial delegation until fall, by which time parliament had assembled to deal with the fallout from the revolt. The Commons was shocked to hear that the arrangement included no word of a dowry and refused to raise taxes to provide for a new queen. Anglo-imperial talks were reopened, but it was soon clear that Václav was in no position to provide a dowry. An embassy to Prague in 1382 reported doubts that Václav would even honor the proposed treaty's provisions against France, as he feared that upsetting the French would lead them to support a noble rebellion against him in Bohemia. The delegation was recalled to London and the Anglo-imperial alliance was abandoned.
Joan grew distressed by her son's continued bachelorhood. She threw herself into talks about Edward's marriage with such urgency that the French chronicler Jean Froissant dubbed it "the queen's great matter." She began corresponding with Pietro Pileo di Prata, cardinal-archbishop of Ravenna, who had played a role in Anglo-imperial negotiations as papal legate to the Empire, a position he left when Václav moved closer to France. Upon his return to Italy, Prata wrote to Joan that Urban VI had a new favorite.
King Carlo III of Naples had come to power as a result of the first Urbanist Crusade, toppling his cousin, Queen Giovanna I of Naples, with the pope's blessing. At the invitation of the archbishop of Ravenna, an English delegation was sent to Rome to forge an alliance with the new king. Edward was contracted to wed Carlo's daughter, also named Giovanna, on 10 October 1383 with a dowry of 300,000 florins (£45,000).
It was nearly two years before Giovanna traveled to England, arriving in summer 1385. Edward was on campaign in Scotland when she arrived, and it was left to Joan to organize the girl's travel from Dover to Westminster and personally welcome her. Joan likely helped Giovanna set up her household, as many of the knights and clerks in Joan's employ ended up in the new queen's service, but details of this are scarce, as Joan played a much more discreet role in affairs once the issue of her son's marriage was settled.
Later years and death
Joan, who Froissant called "the most beautiful woman in all the realm of England" in her youth, grew enormously fat in her later years. The chronicler Thomas Walsinham wrote that Joan had grown obese because she was overly "used to luxury," leading her to often be portrayed as gluttonous or slothful. This may have been a partisan account, though. Walsingham was cynical of the great figures of his era and he wrote about women with particular scorn. Joan's involvement in Edward's marriage negotiations could have put Joan even lower in Walsingham's standing. Based on other contemporary accounts, historians speculate that Joan developed dropsy, which causes a build-up of fluid in the body's tissue.
Joan retired to Wallingford Castle after Edward and Giovanna's marriage, though she continued to play a role as conciliator behind the scenes. Her son Sir John Holland had earned a fair amount of respect for his service on Lancaster's Crusade, but remained more famous for fits of rage and fondness of women than for his service abroad. In 1385, John's charms landed him in a major scandal, as he fathered a son with Isabella of Castile, duchess of Aumale. Joan helped John reconcile with Isabella's husband, Edmund of Langley, 1st duke of Aumale. She was less successful in reconciling her other son, Sir Richard of Bordeaux, with his uncle John of Gaunt, duke of Lancaster. The two fell out when Gaunt endorsed King João of Portugal instead of trying to salvage Richard's betrothal to Beatriz of Portugal, who had a rival claim to the Portuguese throne.
Despite remaining an active member of the royal family behind the scenes, Joan appeared in public only once more before her death on 3 April 1386. She was buried alongside her first husband, Thomas Holland, despite Edward IV having built a crypt for her at Canterbury Cathedral, where he had been laid to rest.
Joan's titles were inherited by her eldest son, also named Thomas Holland, who became 5th earl of Kent and 6th baron Wake of Liddell. The dower lands left to her by Edward IV were returned to the crown. Joan had closely guarded her estates in her later life, just as her mother had done after Edmund of Woodstock's death. Joan was unable to manage such a large portfolio, though. The Kent estate was one of the largest in the realm and would have been difficult to oversee on its own, but Edward IV granted Joan the largest dower ever received by an English queen, which included estates in two dozen English and three Welsh counties. Her son Thomas thus received a messy inheritance, which took several years to return to good standing. Edward V took a special interest in managing Joan's dower lands that returned to the crown before he awarded parts of them to his own wife. Joan left several of her jewels and 500 marks to Richard of Bordeaux, asking in her will that Edward take special care of him.
Marriage and issue
In 1340, Joan wed Sir Thomas Holland, had issue:
Joan of Kent (29 September 1327 - 3 April 1386), known as the Fair Maid of Kent, was queen consort of England from June to September 1377 as the wife of King Edward IV. She was 4th countess of Kent and 5th baroness Wake of Liddell in her own right from 1352 to 1386. She was the mother of King Edward V.
Early life
Joan was born on 29 September 1327. She was the daughter of Edmund of Woodstock, 1st earl of Kent, and Margaret Wake, suo jure 3rd baroness Wake of Liddell. Edmund was the third surviving son of King Edward I of England and was born of the king's second marriage to Margaret of France. Joan was thus a half-niece of King Edward II and a half-first cousin of King Edward III.
Edward II was deposed and murdered by his wife, Queen Isabella, and her lover, Roger Mortimer, 1st earl of March, in 1327. Mortimer and Isabella took control of the government in the name of Edward and Isabella's eldest son, who was crowned Edward III. Edmund remained loyal to his half-brother, Edward II, and was tricked into believing that Edward II was still alive. In 1330, Edmund planned to find Edward II and restore him to the throne. These plans were enough for Mortimer and Isabella to declare Edmund guilty of treason against Edward III and execute him. Edmund's widow and their four children, including Joan, were arrested, their household was disbanded, their property seized, and their titles forfeited. The children were threatened with placement in religious establishments, but Edward III brought down Mortimer and Isabella's regency and took control of the government just months later, restoring his Kent cousins to good graces.
The execution of Joan's father and the near destruction of the Kent family had an enormous effect on Joan's life. Her mother grew obsessed with the management of the family estates and left her children to be raised in the royal household. Joan received a royal education and was surrounded by her peers, but never had a place to call home. The royal nursery traveled with Edward III's wife, Queen Philippa, who was on the move almost constantly, as she insisted on going with her husband on campaign. The instability in Joan's early life, from her father's execution to her mother's absence and the itinerant nature of her life as part of the royal household, left Joan without a strong chaperone and ultimately led her into one of medieval England's greatest scandals.
First marriages
Joan married Sir Thomas Holland in 1340. She was just 13 and went through with the marriage without the consent of her family. Holland joined Edward III's campaign to the continent later that same year. Either unaware of the marriage or under the impression that Holland had died on campaign, Joan's mother arranged for Joan to marry William Montagu, then-heir to the earldom of Salisbury, in 1341. Joan's first marriage was not revealed until Holland returned in 1348, by which time Montagu had succeeded as 2nd earl of Salisbury and become one of the most powerful figures in the realm. Salisbury would not allow Joan to go to Holland or accept that his marriage was invalid until Pope Clement VI intervened. Joan's marriage to Salisbury was annulled. She and Holland were remarried to ensure the validity of their union.
Holland, the second son of a Lancastrian knight who became a minor baron, was an unusual match for a woman of Joan's rank. Their clandestine marriage and the bigamy scandal that erupted because of it made them social pariahs. Joan was not allowed to attend her brother's wedding and her mother pushed her away entirely, believing that Joan had brought shame upon the whole Kent family. Joan was isolated even from her husband, as the war with France repeatedly took him to the continent. It was a remarkably lonely existence for the granddaughter of a king.
In 1352, Joan's brother died childless. She inherited the Kent estates and was transformed into one of the wealthiest and most influential women in England.
Countess, princess, queen
Holland had little interest in estate management and continued regular service in France even after he became earl of Kent jure uxoris. Joan took advantage of her change in circumstances, though, and began joining her husband on campaign so that they could be together more often. Their family grew rapidly, but in 1360 Holland died.
In 1361, Edward of Woodstock, prince of Wales, known as the Black Prince, took an interest in Joan, who was a widow in her early 30s. It was a controversial match for the Black Prince, who was Joan's first cousin once removed and who, as the victor of the Battle of Poitiers and heir to the English throne, could have most any foreign princess of his choosing. They entered into a marriage contract without the consent of the king, but Edward III appears to have not been upset by this, as he helped them secure the four dispensations required for them to legally wed.
Joan became princess of Wales and of Aquitaine through her marriage to the Black Prince. The marriage was an immediate boon for Joan's children from her first marriage, as the Black Prince was childless at the time of his marriage to Joan and had to use his Holland stepchildren to make the sorts of marriage alliances typical for the great men of the era. Joan and the Black Prince moved to Gascony in 1362 and stayed there for nine years. They had two sons, including future King Edward V, before moving back to England in 1371. The Black Prince was seriously ill by this time and would remain so for most of the rest of his life.
Edward III died in June 1377. He was succeeded by the Black Prince as King Edward IV, but the new king's health was extremely poor and he died just 100 days later, which brought his and Joan's eldest son to the throne as Edward V. This became known as the Year of the Three Edwards. Joan's consortship is the second-shortest in English history, longer only than that of Świętosława of Poland, the uncrowned queen of the Danish King Sweyn Forkbeard, who conquered England and ruled over it for just over a month before he died suddenly.
The queen's great matter
The succession of Edward V put Joan in a difficult position. England had seen just two other minorities since the Norman Conquest and neither had left Joan a template to follow as the mother of a young king. In 1220, Isabella of Angoulême remarried, returned to France, and left her young son, King Henry III, in the custody of his councilors. In the late 1320s, Isabella of France rebelled against her own husband and co-ruled the kingdom in the name of her teenage son, Edward III, alongside her lover. The legacy of Isabella of France was especially difficult for Joan, as her father had been a victim of the Mortimer regency. Joan only wanted to arrange a good marriage for Edward V and then retire from public life, avoiding politics for fear of drawing comparisons to Isabella of France.
Joan's involvement in Edward's marriage was unremarkable at first. She had helped arrange all of her other children's marriages and was a calm, quiet figure with a gift for bringing people together, which made her a natural negotiator. Her complicated and controversial marital history made her aware of the difficulties that personal scandal could bring, which predisposed her toward staunchly traditional matches for each of her children. For Edward, this meant a foreign princess. Involving herself in negotiations with foreign powers, however, brought Joan into politics in a way that she had hoped to avoid.
King Charles V of France twice offered his daughters as prospective brides. First, his daughter Marie was proposed as part of a far-reaching deal to end the war between England and France. The English were initially open to peace talks, but Charles's terms were unacceptable and then Marie died in late 1377. Charles tried again in 1378 with his other daughter, Isabella, but the English had lost interest in peace negotiations. Joan approved of the possible French marriage, but she would not push back against the English political establishment as it became more hawkish. The chance for such a match vanished when Isabella then died young as well.
English missions to Hainaut and the Holy Roman Empire in 1378 came back empty-handed. King Robert II of Scotland offered his daughter, Egidia, who was said to be the most beautiful girl in Scotland, but the English thought there was little diplomatic gain to be had. Bernabò Visconti, lord of Milan, offered an enormous dowry for his daughter, Catarina, but it came too late. In summer 1378, England negotiated an alliance with Navarre that included Edward's betrothal to one of the daughters of King Charles II of Navarre.
Joan strongly supported a Navarrese marriage. Charles of Navarre was a king in his own right, had a claim to the French crown, and his wife, who had died years earlier, was a daughter of the first Valois king. Their daughters were thus descended from the fleur-de-lis on both sides, a remarkably prestigious background. The marriage arrangement was soon rendered moot, though, as the French captured Château de Breteuil, the home of Charles's young children, and made his daughters prisoners of the French crown later that year.
As uncertainty over the Anglo-Navarrese alliance grew, Joan lobbied John of Gaunt, duke of Lancaster and lord regent of England, to reopen the search for a bride. Gaunt belatedly responded to the Milanese offer, but this drew the attention of Pope Urban VI, who had come into conflict with the Visconti family. Urban pushed England to open talks with the Empire, hoping that he could bring together his two greatest supporters in the midst of the Western Schism. An imperial princess was the most prestigious possible marriage that Edward could make, which brought Joan's strong support. Talks began to wed Edward and Anna of Bohemia, daughter of the late Emperor Karel IV and half-sister of King Václav IV of Bohemia, who had already been elected king of the Romans in hopes of being crowned emperor.
Preliminary negotiations between England and the Empire went smoothly in 1380 and advanced in 1381. A series of talks were set to conclude in London in summer 1381 when the Revolt of the Towns broke out. Its events delayed the imperial delegation until fall, by which time parliament had assembled to deal with the fallout from the revolt. The Commons was shocked to hear that the arrangement included no word of a dowry and refused to raise taxes to provide for a new queen. Anglo-imperial talks were reopened, but it was soon clear that Václav was in no position to provide a dowry. An embassy to Prague in 1382 reported doubts that Václav would even honor the proposed treaty's provisions against France, as he feared that upsetting the French would lead them to support a noble rebellion against him in Bohemia. The delegation was recalled to London and the Anglo-imperial alliance was abandoned.
Joan grew distressed by her son's continued bachelorhood. She threw herself into talks about Edward's marriage with such urgency that the French chronicler Jean Froissant dubbed it "the queen's great matter." She began corresponding with Pietro Pileo di Prata, cardinal-archbishop of Ravenna, who had played a role in Anglo-imperial negotiations as papal legate to the Empire, a position he left when Václav moved closer to France. Upon his return to Italy, Prata wrote to Joan that Urban VI had a new favorite.
King Carlo III of Naples had come to power as a result of the first Urbanist Crusade, toppling his cousin, Queen Giovanna I of Naples, with the pope's blessing. At the invitation of the archbishop of Ravenna, an English delegation was sent to Rome to forge an alliance with the new king. Edward was contracted to wed Carlo's daughter, also named Giovanna, on 10 October 1383 with a dowry of 300,000 florins (£45,000).
It was nearly two years before Giovanna traveled to England, arriving in summer 1385. Edward was on campaign in Scotland when she arrived, and it was left to Joan to organize the girl's travel from Dover to Westminster and personally welcome her. Joan likely helped Giovanna set up her household, as many of the knights and clerks in Joan's employ ended up in the new queen's service, but details of this are scarce, as Joan played a much more discreet role in affairs once the issue of her son's marriage was settled.
Later years and death
Joan, who Froissant called "the most beautiful woman in all the realm of England" in her youth, grew enormously fat in her later years. The chronicler Thomas Walsinham wrote that Joan had grown obese because she was overly "used to luxury," leading her to often be portrayed as gluttonous or slothful. This may have been a partisan account, though. Walsingham was cynical of the great figures of his era and he wrote about women with particular scorn. Joan's involvement in Edward's marriage negotiations could have put Joan even lower in Walsingham's standing. Based on other contemporary accounts, historians speculate that Joan developed dropsy, which causes a build-up of fluid in the body's tissue.
Joan retired to Wallingford Castle after Edward and Giovanna's marriage, though she continued to play a role as conciliator behind the scenes. Her son Sir John Holland had earned a fair amount of respect for his service on Lancaster's Crusade, but remained more famous for fits of rage and fondness of women than for his service abroad. In 1385, John's charms landed him in a major scandal, as he fathered a son with Isabella of Castile, duchess of Aumale. Joan helped John reconcile with Isabella's husband, Edmund of Langley, 1st duke of Aumale. She was less successful in reconciling her other son, Sir Richard of Bordeaux, with his uncle John of Gaunt, duke of Lancaster. The two fell out when Gaunt endorsed King João of Portugal instead of trying to salvage Richard's betrothal to Beatriz of Portugal, who had a rival claim to the Portuguese throne.
Despite remaining an active member of the royal family behind the scenes, Joan appeared in public only once more before her death on 3 April 1386. She was buried alongside her first husband, Thomas Holland, despite Edward IV having built a crypt for her at Canterbury Cathedral, where he had been laid to rest.
Joan's titles were inherited by her eldest son, also named Thomas Holland, who became 5th earl of Kent and 6th baron Wake of Liddell. The dower lands left to her by Edward IV were returned to the crown. Joan had closely guarded her estates in her later life, just as her mother had done after Edmund of Woodstock's death. Joan was unable to manage such a large portfolio, though. The Kent estate was one of the largest in the realm and would have been difficult to oversee on its own, but Edward IV granted Joan the largest dower ever received by an English queen, which included estates in two dozen English and three Welsh counties. Her son Thomas thus received a messy inheritance, which took several years to return to good standing. Edward V took a special interest in managing Joan's dower lands that returned to the crown before he awarded parts of them to his own wife. Joan left several of her jewels and 500 marks to Richard of Bordeaux, asking in her will that Edward take special care of him.
Marriage and issue
In 1340, Joan wed Sir Thomas Holland, had issue:
- Thomas Holland, 5th earl of Kent (born 1350), who married Alice Fitzalan, daughter of Richard Fitzalan, 4th earl of Arundel and 8th earl of Surrey
- John Holland, 1st earl of Huntingdon (born 1352), who married Lucia Visconti, daughter of Bernabò Visconti, lord of Milan
- Edmund Holland (born 1354) died young
- Maud Holland (born 1355), who married (1) Sir Hugh Courtenay, grandson and heir of Hugh de Courtenay, 2nd earl of Devon; and (2) Waleran III, count of Saint-Pol
- Joan Holland (born 1356), who married Jean IV, duke of Brittany
- King Edward V (born 1365), who married Giovanna of Naples, daughter of King Carlo III of Naples
- Richard of Bordeaux, duke of Clarence (born 1367), who married (1) Anna of Bohemia, daughter of Emperor Karel IV, and (2) Joana of Aragon, daughter of King Joan of Aragon
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I wanted to try something a little different for a little bonus update.
I wrote "Queen's great matter" as a section of "Prince of Chester," but it felt out of place there. That update was about Edward as a young person, whereas this section felt very political. I then said that I was going to post it as a standalone, but it didn't feel to me like anyone would write a standalone Wikipedia article about the marriage negotiations of a 14th century king. Since this is supposed to be an alt-Wikipedia timeline, I decided there needed to be something else to make it make sense. Since Joan dies around this time (though slightly later in ATL than OTL), I thought it might be nice to give her a little spotlight.
I am thinking that from time to time, probably always when we're about to see a character shed their mortal coil, I might post something like this to try and put their contributions to ATL in perspective. Here, Joan's traumatic early life and marriage difficulties led her to take on a greater role in the king's marriage than we might have otherwise expected from her. (She did play a major behind-the-scenes role in OTL Richard II's marriage to Anne of Bohemia, but that marriage was resolved rather quickly and undramatically. In ATL, Joan is pushed outside her comfort zone in the ongoing difficulties of finding Edward a bride.)
I think bonus updates would be a good way to change things up and give a bit more time and attention to the minor characters. For instance, John Neville would make a great candidate for an update like this in the future. (We last saw him as lord lieutenant of Aquitaine in the late 70s.) Someone like Charles the Bad or Jean IV of Brittany has already had so much attention across so many updates that their contribution to the ATL is clear and can be read already. But we may never see someone like Bernardo of Castile again, so maybe he gets one of these somewhere down the line to update the goings-on of Iberia.
Let me know what you think.
I wrote "Queen's great matter" as a section of "Prince of Chester," but it felt out of place there. That update was about Edward as a young person, whereas this section felt very political. I then said that I was going to post it as a standalone, but it didn't feel to me like anyone would write a standalone Wikipedia article about the marriage negotiations of a 14th century king. Since this is supposed to be an alt-Wikipedia timeline, I decided there needed to be something else to make it make sense. Since Joan dies around this time (though slightly later in ATL than OTL), I thought it might be nice to give her a little spotlight.
I am thinking that from time to time, probably always when we're about to see a character shed their mortal coil, I might post something like this to try and put their contributions to ATL in perspective. Here, Joan's traumatic early life and marriage difficulties led her to take on a greater role in the king's marriage than we might have otherwise expected from her. (She did play a major behind-the-scenes role in OTL Richard II's marriage to Anne of Bohemia, but that marriage was resolved rather quickly and undramatically. In ATL, Joan is pushed outside her comfort zone in the ongoing difficulties of finding Edward a bride.)
I think bonus updates would be a good way to change things up and give a bit more time and attention to the minor characters. For instance, John Neville would make a great candidate for an update like this in the future. (We last saw him as lord lieutenant of Aquitaine in the late 70s.) Someone like Charles the Bad or Jean IV of Brittany has already had so much attention across so many updates that their contribution to the ATL is clear and can be read already. But we may never see someone like Bernardo of Castile again, so maybe he gets one of these somewhere down the line to update the goings-on of Iberia.
Let me know what you think.
Absolutely loved the chapter man! Joan was such a great woman!
And we finally get to see Eddi and Dick's wives! Italian and Spanish blood to re-inforce the main Plantagenet bloodline, nice!
Not to mention Dick's title! Clarence is a fine duchy! Although let's hope Dick is kept very far away from a position of authority if his administrative capabilities are the same as OTL.
And we finally get to see Eddi and Dick's wives! Italian and Spanish blood to re-inforce the main Plantagenet bloodline, nice!
Not to mention Dick's title! Clarence is a fine duchy! Although let's hope Dick is kept very far away from a position of authority if his administrative capabilities are the same as OTL.
Duke of Clarence as the title for Richard makes sense, though I’m surprised that he marries an Infanta as a mere second son
English family trees are updated through 1386. French trees will be updated tomorrow or Thursday. (I had hoped to get French trees done too, but I just baked some cookies and I have priorities 
)
(If my humor doesn't translate well to text, that is to say that I've thought this through and all will be explained in time.)
)I came to like Joan quite a bit while researching and writing this timeline. I often thought about what she may be be thinking/doing in ways that never made it into the story, so I'm glad that I got the chance to give her a little send-off.
Richard will become quite a big figure in Phase 2.
It is quite the marriage for a second son of England, isn't it? I wonder how he managed that ...
(If my humor doesn't translate well to text, that is to say that I've thought this through and all will be explained in time.)
It was much appreciated.
Let's hope in a good way for his brother's reign.
So Edward married OTL Joanna II of Naples? Or is this Joanna with same name, same parents, but fathered/mothered with a different sperm/egg? Don’t think she could produce an heir for Edward if it was the OTL one.
Depends on why she was childless OTL. She didn't get married till 28 so if it was a sickness or something that happened later in life, butterflies could handle it.