The Germans Launch a Massive Offensive Against Russia in Late 1917

CaliGuy

Banned
What if, after the failure of Russia's Kerensky Offensive, Germany would have launched a massive offensive against Russia?

How well would this German offensive have fared if it was launched before the start of the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia?

Any thoughts on this?
 

Magical123

Banned
What if, after the failure of Russia's Kerensky Offensive, Germany would have launched a massive offensive against Russia?

How well would this German offensive have fared if it was launched before the start of the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia?

Any thoughts on this?
Would have cut through the Russians like butter, the army was exhausted, the government bankrupt and its people disillusioned with all sorts of promises, it was really a sort of paradigm shift given the whole scale of the crisis.

As it is with American troops coming en masse across the Atlantic it would have been foolish on Germany's part to do this.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Would have cut through the Russians like butter, the army was exhausted, the government bankrupt and its people disillusioned with all sorts of promises, it was really a sort of paradigm shift given the whole scale of the crisis.

Could this have been enough for the Russian Provisional Government to start talking about peace with Germany, though?

As it is with American troops coming en masse across the Atlantic it would have been foolish on Germany's part to do this.

What about the German hope of a separate peace with Russia, though?
 

Magical123

Banned
Could this have been enough for the Russian Provisional Government to start talking about peace with Germany, though?



What about the German hope of a separate peace with Russia, though?
Why would they launch an offensive then declare peace?
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Also, I know that a separate peace between Russia and Germany was unpopular among many Russians--even socialists--during this time. However, what about having Russia actively call for a general European peace?
 

Magical123

Banned
I meant that they could believe that this could cause Russia's government to change its mind in regards to this.
You say the launch a retaliatory offensive after Kerensky bungles.

In late 1917 the Americans were coming and the balance was shifting why would the Germans devote even some of their efforts in the east when they need to win in the west ASAP?
 

CaliGuy

Banned
You say the launch a retaliatory offensive after Kerensky bungles.

In late 1917 the Americans were coming and the balance was shifting why would the Germans devote even some of their efforts in the east when they need to win in the west ASAP?
That's the thing, though--the Germans don't even have a chance of winning in the West ASAP unless Russia is quickly removed from the war.
 

Magical123

Banned
That's the thing, though--the Germans don't even have a chance of winning in the West ASAP unless Russia is quickly removed from the war.
Russian society was disintegrating on its own, the Kerensky government was unstable the calls of agitation were growing greater and they couldn't hold out much longer.
 
That's the thing, though--the Germans don't even have a chance of winning in the West ASAP unless Russia is quickly removed from the war.

It had already just been demonstrated that Russia was no longer an effective factor in the war.
 
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Magical123

Banned
Germany might not have known that yet, though.
Maybe not the scale and penetrating depth of the crisis in Russian society but they had to know the Russians were' a threat.

You have the strikes, the protests, the struggling liberal government, the propaganda, really Russia wasn't even in the game at this point. It was facing a crisis not only of leadership but of direction? Where do we go? Are a western liberal democracy or are we going to pursue a more radical form of social and political change. Not only that but the minorities in the Empire were revolting as well-Poles, Balts, Central Asia Muslims-I mean things were falling apart.
 

Deleted member 1487

What if, after the failure of Russia's Kerensky Offensive, Germany would have launched a massive offensive against Russia?

How well would this German offensive have fared if it was launched before the start of the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia?

Any thoughts on this?
How big of an offensive do you want? They did launch the Riga offensive in 1917.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerensky_Offensive#Aftermath
The Russian provisional government was greatly weakened by this military catastrophe, and the possibility of a Bolshevik coup d'état became increasingly real. Far from strengthening Russian army morale, this offensive proved that Russian army morale no longer existed. No Russian general could now count on the soldiers under his command actually doing what they were ordered to do.

This offensive helped the start of the July Days, and also affected the situation in Romania. Russo-Romanian forces, which first broke the Austro-Hungarian front at Mărăşti in support of the Kerensky Offensive, were stopped.

One further fight took place between the Germans and the Russians in 1917. On September 1, 1917 the Germans attacked and captured Riga. The Russian soldiers defending the town refused to fight and fled from the advancing German troops.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Jugla
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Albion

Major action beyond that was a waste, because the Germans used their reserves to attack at Caporetto, which was more militarily useful at the time considering Russia was collapsing:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Caporetto
 

CaliGuy

Banned
How big of an offensive do you want? They did launch the Riga offensive in 1917.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerensky_Offensive#Aftermath

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Jugla
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Albion

Major action beyond that was a waste, because the Germans used their reserves to attack at Caporetto, which was more militarily useful at the time considering Russia was collapsing:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Caporetto
Good point about Caporetto.

Also, though, I was thinking of an offensive along the scale of the successful Gorlice-Tarnow Offensive back in 1915.
 

Deleted member 1487

Good point about Caporetto.

Also, though, I was thinking of an offensive along the scale of the successful Gorlice-Tarnow Offensive back in 1915.
Again, why? Plus the Riga offensive was roughly similar size and effort to first stage of the G-T offensive.
 

Deleted member 1487

To try knocking Russia out of the war, of course.
They were already neutered and no threat, spending the declining manpower and resources to hasten that process does nothing, because the Germans were able to attack Italy a month after Riga with reserves not needed in the East and did just fine. Even before Russia officially left the war the Germans stripped out the East to attack in France in March 1918. At the same time the Brest-Litovsk advance was going on:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Faustschlag
 

CaliGuy

Banned
They were already neutered and no threat, spending the declining manpower and resources to hasten that process does nothing, because the Germans were able to attack Italy a month after Riga with reserves not needed in the East and did just fine. Even before Russia officially left the war the Germans stripped out the East to attack in France in March 1918. At the same time the Brest-Litovsk advance was going on:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Faustschlag
Question--did the Germans begin moving forces West even before the Brest-Litovsk Treaty was signed?
 
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