The German Era 1917-1943

Well, in my opinion, this goes to ASB. Anybody who tries to paint a CP victory in WWI as equal to (or worse than :eek::rolleyes: ) a Nazi victory in WWII should seriously do a reality check. It's simply not feasible in the context of a CP victory, especially a late CP victory. In my opinion, unless you're talking about a swift victory for the Central Powers (which would leave the militaristic elite of Germany in a favourable position), there's no way that they could pull something like this. It's far more likely that the people of eastern Europe would fare better under the victiorious central powers than they did in OTL under the Nazis and later the Soviets. :rolleyes:

I agree.

As an aside how bad was the Polish-Soviet war?
 
Did the Poles not fight for Germany with the plan to create an independent Poland when Russia was defeated?

There was an attempt to raise a Polish Legion form this purpose. While some troops were recruited, the scheme largely broke down as it became clear that the CPs' ideas about a future Poland fell far short of complete independence. Iirc, Pilsudski, it's commander, finished the war in a German jail.

The Polish inhabitants of Germnany and Austria-Hungary were, of course, called up into their respective armies. Hindenburg, iirc, spoke admiringly of the performance of Polish soldiers in his army. I'm not sure how the Austrian ones performed, but probably about the same as Habsburg soldiers in general.
 
Well, in my opinion, this goes to ASB. Anybody who tries to paint a CP victory in WWI as equal to (or worse than :eek::rolleyes: ) a Nazi victory in WWII should seriously do a reality check. It's simply not feasible in the context of a CP victory, especially a late CP victory. In my opinion, unless you're talking about a swift victory for the Central Powers (which would leave the militaristic elite of Germany in a favourable position), there's no way that they could pull something like this. It's far more likely that the people of eastern Europe would fare better under the victiorious central powers than they did in OTL under the Nazis and later the Soviets. :rolleyes:


Agtreed, though with the observation that merely being not as bad as Hitler or Stalin is not exactly high praise.
 
For the CP, the Poland in question was Russian Poland. Neither Germany had any intention of giving up Prussian Poland, nor Austria-Hungary Austrian Poland (if not Austria-Hungary was to get all of Russian Poland as well and unite both parts under a Habsburg crown).
The buffer zone idea initially was promoted because it should separate Prussian Poland from whatever Poland came out of the haggle with Austria or negotiations with Russia. Such a zone, inhabited by Germans, would insulate Prussian Poland from influence exerted by the 'Other Poland' - it was hoped.

One should, however, be careful and not equate Imperial German conduct with that of the Nazis. Forced labour in 1916-18 was not slave labour like under the SS system. It was just transporting workers from areas where they had no jobs to jobs in Germany, which were missing workers. The people certainly were forced to move, but otherwise not misstreated or killed arbitrarily. A Germany lacking workers in industry and agriculture and being slowly choked by British blockade hardly had other options. Nevertheless, the numbers in question or some four to five hundred thousand Belgians and Poles, not million of people - and no women and children.
 
What about Posen and Galicia-Lodomeria?

Posen was Prussian for almost 100 years by then, and the Poles there were German citizens you could not easily drive out en masse in Imperial Germany - unless you suppose a significant POD well before WWI started.

Galicia was Austrian. It's not a good idea to plan annexing the land of your Ally you went to war for in the first place.


Considering the general idea: if Lokari assumes a POD BEFORE WWI started, one could imagine a Nazi-like ideology taking over in Imperial Germany - just as one could imagine such an ideology taking over in any other European country of the time. Although it's obviously difficult to write a realistical timeline about it.

Overall, the German plans as presented here are as realisitc as the Morgenthau plan, which means that as soon as somebody thinks it through, the plan would be thrown away. Unless, of course, you'd had an irrational bunch of criminals as leaders, which happened in Germany 30 years later...
 

Beer

Banned
Considering the general idea: if Lokari assumes a POD BEFORE WWI started, one could imagine a Nazi-like ideology taking over in Imperial Germany - just as one could imagine such an ideology taking over in any other European country of the time. Although it's obviously difficult to write a realistical timeline about it.

Overall, the German plans as presented here are as realisitc as the Morgenthau plan, which means that as soon as somebody thinks it through, the plan would be thrown away. Unless, of course, you'd had an irrational bunch of criminals as leaders, which happened in Germany 30 years later...
Hi, Monty!
Realism and Lokari don´t fit in the same sentence! He is nothing more than a (self-censored), letting out his hate for Germany. If you read some of his other posts, it becomes clear that he´s a Troll.
 

Eurofed

Banned
Hi, Monty!
Realism and Lokari don´t fit in the same sentence! He is nothing more than a (self-censored), letting out his hate for Germany. If you read some of his other posts, it becomes clear that he´s a Troll.

More than that. Now that Ian confirmed my earlier suspects, I can tell with certainty that he's nothing but the latest handle for an old-time and pluri-banned Pole supremacist Germanophobe and Russophobe troll named Hurgan (and many other later handles besides) that holds all kinds of paranoid Nazi conspiracy and Pole untranationalist racist beliefs, such as that modern Germany and the EU are secretly run by Nazi conspiracy cabals and Germans and Russians have been conspiring for centuries to destroy Poles, the real Chosen People. I can tell from experience that it is impossible to have a rational and productive AH discussion with Hurgan, sadly he only comes to this forum again and again with new handles to spew his racist hate and nationalist paranoia with ASB post-1900 threads.
 
Did the Poles not fight for Germany with the plan to create an independent Poland when Russia was defeated?
I believe that the Austrians created the "Polish Legions" to fight the Russians, but most of them were interned after they refused to swear an oath of allegiance to Kaiser Wilhelm II when the Kingdom of Poland was created out of former Russian Poland. The ones that weren't interned were forcibly drafted into the German and Austrian armies.
 
Galicia was Austrian. It's not a good idea to plan annexing the land of your Ally you went to war for in the first place.


Though in 1917, according to Gordon Brook-Shepherd ("The Last Habsburg", Chapter 7) Emperor Karl offered to concede control of Poland to Germany, and surrender Galicia to it, as compensation if Germany had to cede Alsace-Lorraine to France as part of a compromise peace. The Germans, of course, didn't want to know.
 
Galicia really was going to the new puppeted Poland...that had been agreed upon in 1917, so in a CP win, that is likely.
 
OK, if the Austirans propose or agree upon ceding Galicia, it can be done. I just meant that it's not a good idea for the Germans to come up with such a plan.

From the Austrian point of view, this makes sense anyway. If I remember correctly, the Poles were treated better in Austrian lands then both in Russia and Prussia/Germany. Consequently, the Austrians can expect a new Polish state to be more friendly to themselves then to the Germans. There's also the recurring plan of putting an Austrian on the Polish throne. Furthermore, ceding Galicia means to reduce the number of minorities by two in AH. Galicia is a great barter for AH - or could have been.
 
OK, if the Austirans propose or agree upon ceding Galicia, it can be done. I just meant that it's not a good idea for the Germans to come up with such a plan.

From the Austrian point of view, this makes sense anyway. If I remember correctly, the Poles were treated better in Austrian lands then both in Russia and Prussia/Germany. Consequently, the Austrians can expect a new Polish state to be more friendly to themselves then to the Germans. There's also the recurring plan of putting an Austrian on the Polish throne. Furthermore, ceding Galicia means to reduce the number of minorities by two in AH. Galicia is a great barter for AH - or could have been.

Does this make Karl unique in WW1 as the only ruler or government prepared to cede territory for the sake of peace? Offhand I can't think of another?
 
Does this make Karl unique in WW1 as the only ruler or government prepared to cede territory for the sake of peace? Offhand I can't think of another?

Pretty much. Lenin maybe, but he didn't have much choice. Everyone else was prepared to fight over every square inch of territory, no matter how worthless.
 
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