Or the long 18th century.9
I'm an idiot. I forgot the 11 month and the fact that it would be 2039.
The Gates of Heaven Will Never be Closed: The World of the 1538 Sanhedrin
- Thread starter jacob ningen
- Start date
To be slightly cynical, I think the difference between being seen as a colonial power in hindsight and not is more about the acceptance of subjugated peoples and nations of colonial rule than about the practices of the colonial powers. The Ottomans, for instance, aren't really thought of as a colonizing power in the vein of Britain or France in the Arab world (unlike, for instance, in the Balkans) since their rule was much more palatable and acceptable to those people until the early 20th century.
I think the relationship between Egypt and its clients is perceived as legitimate enough on both sides to not engender the kind of (internal national, and also external historical) narrative European colonialism did. This, of course, could change rapidly if Egypt's administration becomes more exploitative and controlling (which very well may happen if the world enters some kind of... War), causing their various subjects to speed up the process of acquiring independence.
Interesting (I'm learning so much from this thread!). I suppose I was guilty of lazy thinking by assuming that in all calendars 'centuries' would be important.
Fully agree. I came across a history book not too long ago which was specifically about one century (14th, iirc) and I found it a little strange to read, as the author had obviously struggled with trying to tell the story of that century without dropping back into the previous or looking at effects on the next; inevitably, I suppose, it ended up focussing on events in the latter half of the century which were relatively self-contained. So yes, a 'century' (or any other artificial grouping of years) can be anything we want it to be...
(I'm still firmly on the side of the 19th ending at the end of 1900 though (and 20th at the end of 2000) - that's the mathematician in me...
)well, TL took the leap to 1900.
but I have some questions about the events between 1876 and 1900.
1. OTL, in 1881, narodniks (among whom there were Jews) killed Alexander II of Russia, and a wave of pogroms swept across the Pale of Settlement. Pogroms triggered a wave of the Jewish migration to USA - around 10k Jews from Russia come to America every year. Would TTL at least part of this wave go to Palestine, not USA?
2. Would the Dreyfus Affair (1894) still happen TTL?
3. What about Leon Trotsky? OTL, he was born in 1879 in Yanovka - a Jewish agricultural colony in Kherson Governorate and began his revolutionary activities in1890s from the creation of a revolutionary circle among workers at the Nikolaev shipyards . But TTL, as I understand, Russian politics was to create Jewish colonies in Astrakhan, not Kherson. So, Trotsky TTL can be butterfled away, or his destiny could be completly different from OTL. And, without Trotsky, Lenin might have lost the struggle for power in the RSDLP.
4. About McKinley assasination (well, in 1901, but...). OTL there is at least some speculation that Czolgosz made the decision to shoot the president after hearing Jewish anarchist Emma Goldman (born in Kovno, Pale of Settlement) speak at a rally about terror being the path to a new society. But TTL Emma Goldman as leader of the Jewish Anarchists in America could be butterflyed away. and, thereafter, the shoot to. And without McKinley death we might never have heard of President Teddy Roosevelt)
but I have some questions about the events between 1876 and 1900.
1. OTL, in 1881, narodniks (among whom there were Jews) killed Alexander II of Russia, and a wave of pogroms swept across the Pale of Settlement. Pogroms triggered a wave of the Jewish migration to USA - around 10k Jews from Russia come to America every year. Would TTL at least part of this wave go to Palestine, not USA?
2. Would the Dreyfus Affair (1894) still happen TTL?
3. What about Leon Trotsky? OTL, he was born in 1879 in Yanovka - a Jewish agricultural colony in Kherson Governorate and began his revolutionary activities in1890s from the creation of a revolutionary circle among workers at the Nikolaev shipyards . But TTL, as I understand, Russian politics was to create Jewish colonies in Astrakhan, not Kherson. So, Trotsky TTL can be butterfled away, or his destiny could be completly different from OTL. And, without Trotsky, Lenin might have lost the struggle for power in the RSDLP.
4. About McKinley assasination (well, in 1901, but...). OTL there is at least some speculation that Czolgosz made the decision to shoot the president after hearing Jewish anarchist Emma Goldman (born in Kovno, Pale of Settlement) speak at a rally about terror being the path to a new society. But TTL Emma Goldman as leader of the Jewish Anarchists in America could be butterflyed away. and, thereafter, the shoot to. And without McKinley death we might never have heard of President Teddy Roosevelt)
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I second this question, but would also like to add that a part of them did go to Palestine OTL - it was the first Aliyah. What comes of it ITTL? I imagine @Jonathan Edelstein has an answer in store for us...
Probably
I think it would go differently. Firstly dreyfuss if still accused gets the full non guilty verdict in the pretrial and esterhazy is not acquitted because the French millitary Old boys club that had it out for Dreyfuss and saw esterhazy who couldn't be more suspicious if he held up a sign saying I am the spy is more truly secular not merely anticlerical but heavily catholic as IOTL and thus less partial between Dreyfuss whose grandparents are Alsatian Jews but extremely loyal and esterhazy who is a gambler and rake who frequently discusses how much he hates France and is related to HRE nobles.
I mean the main butterfly is Goldman being in america the Cantonist policy will still push her to anarchism and anti millitarism.
Not committing to anything at this point, but I suspect there will be a lot of variation from place to place, depending on what kind of control Egypt exercises in each territory and how hard they try to maintain that control. In southern Sudan and in the eastern and western peripheries, Egyptian rule very likely will be viewed as colonial; the same may or may not also be true in the Nejd and Yemen depending on how Egypt and its Hejazi client relate to the local rulers. Hejaz itself and the Levant, where the Egyptian alliance has thus far been a net benefit, are another story. But as @SpaceRome says, that could change if the 19th-century world order dies a violent death.
They'll show up from time to time now that they're in the neighborhood. At least one of the 1905 or 1927 stories will involve Amman.
That would be Tuchman's A Distant Mirror, which is still one of my favorite works of popular history. She portrays the century through the life of one person who was born in 1340 - a device I've occasionally used myself since encountering it in her work - so it does start in the middle, but the 1340-1397 time frame does capture most of the high and low points. The format is only somewhat linear so it's not always easy to follow, but (IMO at least) it's a thorough and vivid picture of the place and time.
Again, I'm not committing to anything right now - much will be revealed in the 1905 stories, which will begin soon. But the Russian Empire is still mostly under the butterfly net, so yes, the 1881 pogroms, the May Laws, and the second wave of pogroms in 1903-05 will happen ITTL, and so will the massive Jewish emigration from the Pale. They'll go all over the place, including some destinations that didn't draw many of them IOTL (Cairo, Alexandria, and Damascus, for instance, as well as possible refuges within the empire), and yes, including Palestine. Obviously they won't be the First Aliyah ITTL - they'll be joining the existing Yishuv, political Zionism is going to be much less of a factor, and their final destinations will be dictated as much by economics and logistics as anything else.
We'll meet some of them - at least one of the 1905 stories will take place in the Russian Empire, and some of those taking place in the Levant will involve the emigres.
Western Europe is also still mostly under the butterfly net, so there will be some version of the affair, which will at least peripherally involve the French Jews of Staten Island. I wouldn't necessarily count on it going better for Dreyfus, at least at first - the French army might be more secular, but this was also a period when antisemitism was increasing throughout Europe, and as we've seen, the French Jews ITTL are closely tied to the state and any perceived disloyalty is likely to be punished. The real test might be what happens when the truth comes out - will Dreyfus be acquitted at his second trial, or will he suffer a limbo like OTL in which he is released but not restored to honor? That could affect not only French politics (which as IOTL will be catalyzed by the affair) but what Dreyfus himself does after his release. We'll find out.
Astrakhan is where the Tsars have been "encouraging" Caucasian Jews to go (and there's also a self-created Bukharan community there) but the Jewish agricultural colonies in Ukraine, which draw from the Pale rather than the Caucasus, still exist. How that will affect Trotsky, and whatever version of the Russian Revolution happens ITTL, is to be determined (as is Emma Goldman - I haven't thought much yet about how she will fit into TTL, which I'll obviously need to do now).
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A Map of the Levant during the events of innocents abroad.
’’So, what do you want to keep?’’
Oulis reached into the pile of books. A faded magazine here, a brick of a book further in, and children’s books interspersed throughout. Summers in Nablus were hot, dry, and long, much unlike the muggy weather he was used to, and he was chomping at the bit to go buy himself some sherbet. “None of the stuff we’ve found so far.” His grandfather’s chuckle answered in kind.
Rather than that, of all the things in the bustling city to do, he had to go through the tedious process of sorting through his Saba’s clutter. A summer vacation well spent, of course.
Wandering through the stacks of books he’d haphazardly organised, Oulis stopped in front a wide window, hewn from grey stone. It seemed to beckon to him, the narrow streets of the Old Town sprawling out before him. Would it be so hard to take the leap? Suddenly, as if in answer, the sun bloomed, its intensity illuminating the room’s makeshift metropolis.
And there, scattered among the countless towers, a slate-gray hardcover emerged in his vision, He approached, feeling a certain sense of deja vu, and raised the title to the light: Sterling’s Modern Atlas of the World.
Leafing through the pages, he experienced all the staples of the well-worn atlas: ancient empires, bustling trade routes, the gradual spread of the religions whose homeland he stood in, and eventually, a very familiar map.
He remembered it well: a ramshackle library in Battersea, just a few blocks from the sprawling developments his family called home. He’d walk there with his friends, what with the corner store next door, but he’d eventually become a true devotee of the library, a stalwart of the fiction section. Eventually, school’s calling made him leave that comfortable bubble, only to find the illustrated atlases much to his liking, the simple lines and colours breaking up the endless historical recitation. And then, he found it: a map of the Levant in Grant’s time.
What Galilean had not heard the tale of Grant the Pilgrim; the great emancipator, the soldier of two worlds, the man who discovered the Qumran scrolls? To his parents, that name held a legacy unlike any other, and so, there he was, the aged map festooned with the omnipresent library stamp calling out for a much-needed addition.
With a passion rivalling his namesake’s charges into battle, he scribbled out all the destinations by memory, from Ashdod to Acre, feeling rather proud of himself.
He ended up having to use half of his summer allowance to pay the price. Measured, measured, judged, divided, indeed. What had motivated him to leave the tome here, thousands of miles from home? Shame? Embarrassment? A sense of belonging, and a journey in its proper place?
Shaking him out of his doldrums, the clamour of a street vendor filled his ears, the tantalising smells of vanilla, candied pumpkin and prickly pear filling his thoughts in a manner he’d never felt anywhere else. Equally affected, his Saba gave him a knowing smile, and turned towards the door.
Book in hand, he went to greet his reward.
Oulis reached into the pile of books. A faded magazine here, a brick of a book further in, and children’s books interspersed throughout. Summers in Nablus were hot, dry, and long, much unlike the muggy weather he was used to, and he was chomping at the bit to go buy himself some sherbet. “None of the stuff we’ve found so far.” His grandfather’s chuckle answered in kind.
Rather than that, of all the things in the bustling city to do, he had to go through the tedious process of sorting through his Saba’s clutter. A summer vacation well spent, of course.
Wandering through the stacks of books he’d haphazardly organised, Oulis stopped in front a wide window, hewn from grey stone. It seemed to beckon to him, the narrow streets of the Old Town sprawling out before him. Would it be so hard to take the leap? Suddenly, as if in answer, the sun bloomed, its intensity illuminating the room’s makeshift metropolis.
And there, scattered among the countless towers, a slate-gray hardcover emerged in his vision, He approached, feeling a certain sense of deja vu, and raised the title to the light: Sterling’s Modern Atlas of the World.
Leafing through the pages, he experienced all the staples of the well-worn atlas: ancient empires, bustling trade routes, the gradual spread of the religions whose homeland he stood in, and eventually, a very familiar map.
He remembered it well: a ramshackle library in Battersea, just a few blocks from the sprawling developments his family called home. He’d walk there with his friends, what with the corner store next door, but he’d eventually become a true devotee of the library, a stalwart of the fiction section. Eventually, school’s calling made him leave that comfortable bubble, only to find the illustrated atlases much to his liking, the simple lines and colours breaking up the endless historical recitation. And then, he found it: a map of the Levant in Grant’s time.
What Galilean had not heard the tale of Grant the Pilgrim; the great emancipator, the soldier of two worlds, the man who discovered the Qumran scrolls? To his parents, that name held a legacy unlike any other, and so, there he was, the aged map festooned with the omnipresent library stamp calling out for a much-needed addition.
With a passion rivalling his namesake’s charges into battle, he scribbled out all the destinations by memory, from Ashdod to Acre, feeling rather proud of himself.
He ended up having to use half of his summer allowance to pay the price. Measured, measured, judged, divided, indeed. What had motivated him to leave the tome here, thousands of miles from home? Shame? Embarrassment? A sense of belonging, and a journey in its proper place?
Shaking him out of his doldrums, the clamour of a street vendor filled his ears, the tantalising smells of vanilla, candied pumpkin and prickly pear filling his thoughts in a manner he’d never felt anywhere else. Equally affected, his Saba gave him a knowing smile, and turned towards the door.
Book in hand, he went to greet his reward.
\\ A map of the Levant, circa the 1878 cycle.
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That was it, thank you, I'd forgotten. I found it in a second-hand bookshop and only skimmed through it, deciding not to buy it. Now that you've reminded me of the title and author, it's gone on my 'should buy at some point' list.
I've told you this already off-thread, but the map is amazing. Thanks again for making it.
Great!
’’So, what do you want to keep?’’
Oulis reached into the pile of books. A faded magazine here, a brick of a book further in, and children’s books interspersed throughout. Summers in Nablus were hot, dry, and long, much unlike the muggy weather he was used to, and he was chomping at the bit to go buy himself some sherbet. “None of the stuff we’ve found so far.” His grandfather’s chuckle answered in kind.
Rather than that, of all the things in the bustling city to do, he had to go through the tedious process of sorting through his Saba’s clutter. A summer vacation well spent, of course.
Wandering through the stacks of books he’d haphazardly organised, Oulis stopped in front a wide window, hewn from grey stone. It seemed to beckon to him, the narrow streets of the Old Town sprawling out before him. Would it be so hard to take the leap? Suddenly, as if in answer, the sun bloomed, its intensity illuminating the room’s makeshift metropolis.
And there, scattered among the countless towers, a slate-gray hardcover emerged in his vision, He approached, feeling a certain sense of deja vu, and raised the title to the light: Sterling’s Modern Atlas of the World.
Leafing through the pages, he experienced all the staples of the well-worn atlas: ancient empires, bustling trade routes, the gradual spread of the religions whose homeland he stood in, and eventually, a very familiar map.
He remembered it well: a ramshackle library in Battersea, just a few blocks from the sprawling developments his family called home. He’d walk there with his friends, what with the corner store next door, but he’d eventually become a true devotee of the library, a stalwart of the fiction section. Eventually, school’s calling made him leave that comfortable bubble, only to find the illustrated atlases much to his liking, the simple lines and colours breaking up the endless historical recitation. And then, he found it: a map of the Levant in Grant’s time.
What Galilean had not heard the tale of Grant the Pilgrim; the great emancipator, the soldier of two worlds, the man who discovered the Qumran scrolls? To his parents, that name held a legacy unlike any other, and so, there he was, the aged map festooned with the omnipresent library stamp calling out for a much-needed addition.
With a passion rivalling his namesake’s charges into battle, he scribbled out all the destinations by memory, from Ashdod to Acre, feeling rather proud of himself.
He ended up having to use half of his summer allowance to pay the price. Measured, measured, judged, divided, indeed. What had motivated him to leave the tome here, thousands of miles from home? Shame? Embarrassment? A sense of belonging, and a journey in its proper place?
Shaking him out of his doldrums, the clamour of a street vendor filled his ears, the tantalising smells of vanilla, candied pumpkin and prickly pear filling his thoughts in a manner he’d never felt anywhere else. Equally affected, his Saba gave him a knowing smile, and turned towards the door.
Book in hand, he went to greet his reward.
\\ A map of the Levant, circa the 1878 cycle.
’’So, what do you want to keep?’’
Oulis reached into the pile of books. A faded magazine here, a brick of a book further in, and children’s books interspersed throughout. Summers in Nablus were hot, dry, and long, much unlike the muggy weather he was used to, and he was chomping at the bit to go buy himself some sherbet. “None of the stuff we’ve found so far.” His grandfather’s chuckle answered in kind.
Rather than that, of all the things in the bustling city to do, he had to go through the tedious process of sorting through his Saba’s clutter. A summer vacation well spent, of course.
Wandering through the stacks of books he’d haphazardly organised, Oulis stopped in front a wide window, hewn from grey stone. It seemed to beckon to him, the narrow streets of the Old Town sprawling out before him. Would it be so hard to take the leap? Suddenly, as if in answer, the sun bloomed, its intensity illuminating the room’s makeshift metropolis.
And there, scattered among the countless towers, a slate-gray hardcover emerged in his vision, He approached, feeling a certain sense of deja vu, and raised the title to the light: Sterling’s Modern Atlas of the World.
Leafing through the pages, he experienced all the staples of the well-worn atlas: ancient empires, bustling trade routes, the gradual spread of the religions whose homeland he stood in, and eventually, a very familiar map.
He remembered it well: a ramshackle library in Battersea, just a few blocks from the sprawling developments his family called home. He’d walk there with his friends, what with the corner store next door, but he’d eventually become a true devotee of the library, a stalwart of the fiction section. Eventually, school’s calling made him leave that comfortable bubble, only to find the illustrated atlases much to his liking, the simple lines and colours breaking up the endless historical recitation. And then, he found it: a map of the Levant in Grant’s time.
What Galilean had not heard the tale of Grant the Pilgrim; the great emancipator, the soldier of two worlds, the man who discovered the Qumran scrolls? To his parents, that name held a legacy unlike any other, and so, there he was, the aged map festooned with the omnipresent library stamp calling out for a much-needed addition.
With a passion rivalling his namesake’s charges into battle, he scribbled out all the destinations by memory, from Ashdod to Acre, feeling rather proud of himself.
He ended up having to use half of his summer allowance to pay the price. Measured, measured, judged, divided, indeed. What had motivated him to leave the tome here, thousands of miles from home? Shame? Embarrassment? A sense of belonging, and a journey in its proper place?
Shaking him out of his doldrums, the clamour of a street vendor filled his ears, the tantalising smells of vanilla, candied pumpkin and prickly pear filling his thoughts in a manner he’d never felt anywhere else. Equally affected, his Saba gave him a knowing smile, and turned towards the door.
Book in hand, he went to greet his reward.
\\ A map of the Levant, circa the 1878 cycle.
How did you make this? I'd love to make a map like this
probably not. coequal partner to the other members of the Levantine confederacy, from Egypt and the Porte probably. of course that depends on whether Gershon and his descendents are used by the porte to stir up trouble a la Jacobites.
There will be upheavals in the early 20th century - that's almost overdetermined, given that the butterfly net has preserved all of industrial modernity's OTL discontents - so there will be a chance for almost anything. The question is whether Galilee would even want complete independence, given that it would be landlocked and that a hard border between the Galilee Yishuv and the parts of the Yishuv living in Acre, Wadi Ara and the coastal plain would be undesirable to all parties. If Galilee does become fully independent, that might actually be something imposed on it from outside.
As @jacob ningen says, the path of least resistance would most likely be all the Levantine states becoming independent from Egypt together. OTOH, the path of least resistance isn't always the one taken. (TL;dr: I'm not telling.)
that would be cheating
if there were a prize for this timeline id tell @Jonathan Edelstein that Id share half of it with him if he told me but given that this timeline is basically his anyway and any accolades would go to him anyway I cant pull the Wilder Wonka joke.
[scene of Maccabees chorusing "you'll shoot your eye out, kid"]
The Gardner family is fictional, but Peirce (spelled that way), Everett and Hoffman were all OTL academics.