MagicalRabbit
Banned
If France never falls during World War II, then what exactly would the future of Zionism look like?
Any thoughts on this?
Any thoughts on this?
Also, though, I accidentally posted this thread in the wrong place.Indeed, can a moderator here please move this thread to the correct place?
Thanks.Point of reference, if you need a post moved by a Mod, report your post and in the message just say you want it moved![]()
In addition to this, though, do you have any thoughts on this scenario of mine?![]()
Yes, this appears to be correct.Im not an expert on Zionism but my understanding was that the Holocaust had the effects of driving more Jewish people towards Palestine and create further sympathy and support for Israel?
That all depends on why France doesn't fall - the Schwartze Kapelle seem an unlikely reason for it IMHO (indeed, the question implies that the Germans try but fail - there are few plausible scenarios where they sit on their laurels after taking Poland and wait for the British and French to build up a crushing superiority).My response to this question would be that if the Schwarze Kapelle successfully overthrow Hitler and the Nazis early enough, then the Nazis would be unable to begin implementing the Holocaust. However, even if the Schwarze Kapelle fail to overthrow Hitler and the Nazis (just like they failed to do this in 1944 in our TL), then the Nazis would only have a total of 2-3 million, rather than 6 million, Jews whom they could kill, which in turn is why exactly I said that if there would have still been a Holocaust in this TL, then this Holocaust would have been smaller than it was in our TL.
Im not an expert on Zionism but my understanding was that the Holocaust had the effects of driving more Jewish people towards Palestine and create further sympathy and support for Israel?
Question--would the Nazis actually have enough manpower and resources to both hold the front and to kill the Jewish population under their control en masse in this TL?That all depends on why France doesn't fall - the Schwartze Kapelle seem an unlikely reason for it IMHO (indeed, the question implies that the Germans try but fail - there are few plausible scenarios where they sit on their laurels after taking Poland and wait for the British and French to build up a crushing superiority).
The issue then is that - at least going by Wages of Destruction - the Germans were planning on keeping the Jewish population of Poland alive for slave labour in the Soviet Union. The extermination camps certainly only really kicked into high gear when it became apparent that this wasn't practical - if France is still in the fight then any idea of Operation Barbarossa is straight out of the window, so the Jews of Poland then become "useless mouths" and the Nazis are likely to kick off the extermination camps in the winter of 1940. The likely result is a far more complete genocide of the Jewish population under Nazi control (significant numbers from say Poland survived in OTL - in this scenario they probably would not). There is a good chance that the extermination camps would also have been liberated by British or French troops, in which case the details of them would most likely be far more extensively publicised - see the way the UK ensured newsreel film of Bergen-Belsen was shown to the whole country.
Would Israel still be created in this TL, though?Although it could be argued that the Zionists expected a lot more European jews to migrate to Palestine as part of the Zionist project. The Holocaust happening being a rather nasty surprise.
So if we assume Israel still is created, which is a big assumption, then we could expect to see Israel to perhaps have a lot more European migrants over the short/medium term.
I completely agree with your general point here, though; indeed, I just want to hear your thoughts about whether or not Israel is still created in this TL.So if we assume Israel still is created, which is a big assumption, then we could expect to see Israel to perhaps have a lot more European migrants over the short/medium term.