The future of Zionism in a no-Fall-of-France scenario

If France never falls during World War II, then what exactly would the future of Zionism look like?

Any thoughts on this?
 
Also, though, I accidentally posted this thread in the wrong place. :( Indeed, can a moderator here please move this thread to the correct place?
 
Also, though, I accidentally posted this thread in the wrong place. :( Indeed, can a moderator here please move this thread to the correct place?

Point of reference, if you need a post moved by a Mod, report your post and in the message just say you want it moved :)
 
Also, in regards to this part here:

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=376553

"Why does this mean no holocaust? The Germans have plenty of Jews under their control and they are still ruled by Hitler."

My response to this question would be that if the Schwarze Kapelle successfully overthrow Hitler and the Nazis early enough, then the Nazis would be unable to begin implementing the Holocaust. However, even if the Schwarze Kapelle fail to overthrow Hitler and the Nazis (just like they failed to do this in 1944 in our TL), then the Nazis would only have a total of 2-3 million, rather than 6 million, Jews whom they could kill, which in turn is why exactly I said that if there would have still been a Holocaust in this TL, then this Holocaust would have been smaller than it was in our TL.
 
In addition to this, though, do you have any thoughts on this scenario of mine? :)

Im not an expert on Zionism but my understanding was that the Holocaust had the effects of driving more Jewish people towards Palestine and create further sympathy and support for Israel?
 
My response to this question would be that if the Schwarze Kapelle successfully overthrow Hitler and the Nazis early enough, then the Nazis would be unable to begin implementing the Holocaust. However, even if the Schwarze Kapelle fail to overthrow Hitler and the Nazis (just like they failed to do this in 1944 in our TL), then the Nazis would only have a total of 2-3 million, rather than 6 million, Jews whom they could kill, which in turn is why exactly I said that if there would have still been a Holocaust in this TL, then this Holocaust would have been smaller than it was in our TL.
That all depends on why France doesn't fall - the Schwartze Kapelle seem an unlikely reason for it IMHO (indeed, the question implies that the Germans try but fail - there are few plausible scenarios where they sit on their laurels after taking Poland and wait for the British and French to build up a crushing superiority).
The issue then is that - at least going by Wages of Destruction - the Germans were planning on keeping the Jewish population of Poland alive for slave labour in the Soviet Union. The extermination camps certainly only really kicked into high gear when it became apparent that this wasn't practical - if France is still in the fight then any idea of Operation Barbarossa is straight out of the window, so the Jews of Poland then become "useless mouths" and the Nazis are likely to kick off the extermination camps in the winter of 1940. The likely result is a far more complete genocide of the Jewish population under Nazi control (significant numbers from say Poland survived in OTL - in this scenario they probably would not). There is a good chance that the extermination camps would also have been liberated by British or French troops, in which case the details of them would most likely be far more extensively publicised - see the way the UK ensured newsreel film of Bergen-Belsen was shown to the whole country.
 
Im not an expert on Zionism but my understanding was that the Holocaust had the effects of driving more Jewish people towards Palestine and create further sympathy and support for Israel?

Although it could be argued that the Zionists expected a lot more European jews to migrate to Palestine as part of the Zionist project. The Holocaust happening being a rather nasty surprise.

So if we assume Israel still is created, which is a big assumption, then we could expect to see Israel to perhaps have a lot more European migrants over the short/medium term.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
That all depends on why France doesn't fall - the Schwartze Kapelle seem an unlikely reason for it IMHO (indeed, the question implies that the Germans try but fail - there are few plausible scenarios where they sit on their laurels after taking Poland and wait for the British and French to build up a crushing superiority).
The issue then is that - at least going by Wages of Destruction - the Germans were planning on keeping the Jewish population of Poland alive for slave labour in the Soviet Union. The extermination camps certainly only really kicked into high gear when it became apparent that this wasn't practical - if France is still in the fight then any idea of Operation Barbarossa is straight out of the window, so the Jews of Poland then become "useless mouths" and the Nazis are likely to kick off the extermination camps in the winter of 1940. The likely result is a far more complete genocide of the Jewish population under Nazi control (significant numbers from say Poland survived in OTL - in this scenario they probably would not). There is a good chance that the extermination camps would also have been liberated by British or French troops, in which case the details of them would most likely be far more extensively publicised - see the way the UK ensured newsreel film of Bergen-Belsen was shown to the whole country.
Question--would the Nazis actually have enough manpower and resources to both hold the front and to kill the Jewish population under their control en masse in this TL?
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Although it could be argued that the Zionists expected a lot more European jews to migrate to Palestine as part of the Zionist project. The Holocaust happening being a rather nasty surprise.

So if we assume Israel still is created, which is a big assumption, then we could expect to see Israel to perhaps have a lot more European migrants over the short/medium term.
Would Israel still be created in this TL, though?
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Anyway, my guess for this scenario is this: While the Nazis still commit a lot of Babi Yar-style shootings of Jews in this TL, their military situation prevents them from building as large of an industrialized murder machine as they built in our TL. This, combined with the fact that the Nazis have less Jews under their control in this TL, causes the total Jewish Holocaust death toll in this TL to be between 0.5 (if the Schwarze Kapelle act relatively quickly against the Nazis) and 1.5 million.

In turn, this might mean that, while there will still be a lot of international sympathy for the Jews, there might not be enough sympathy to create a Jewish state in Palestine through the League of Nations (or through the United Nations, if the LON is still disbanded after the end of WWII in this TL). Indeed, even in our TL, the UN vote on the 1947 Partition Plan for Palestine was barely successful (and that was with 6 million Jews killed in the Holocaust!).

In turn, if Israel won't be created through the League of Nations in this TL, the Zionists in Palestine might need to launch an insurgency against the Palestinians in order to try creating their own state. Frankly, this Zionist insurgency might actually be successful considering that most of the Palestinians' military power was apparently destroyed by the British back during the 1936-1939 Arab Revolt. However, a state of Israel which is created as a result of a Zionist insurgency against the Palestinians might be perceived as a rogue state and thus be internationally isolated, with various Western countries viewing it as a pariah state and thus with Israel being compelled to form an alliance with the Soviet Union in order to try ensuring its own survival in this TL.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
So if we assume Israel still is created, which is a big assumption, then we could expect to see Israel to perhaps have a lot more European migrants over the short/medium term.
I completely agree with your general point here, though; indeed, I just want to hear your thoughts about whether or not Israel is still created in this TL.
 
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