Lucius Cornelius Sulla
Banned
So while making a different post, in a different forum, I made the comment:
"[Someone] thinks of him as a vile toad; the thing is, though, most toads don't decide on the future of our Res Publica."
So I got to thinking, What if some great man of Rome actually tripped on/was startled by a toad and died? Perhaps he falls off a defile, or falls into a swamp and drowns.
I got to thinking: where would this be most effective and entertaining at changing history?
So let's say that during the Siege of Numantia in 133BC, Gaius Marius trips on a toad and splatters his brains onto the rocks of Spain. Immediately the effects are negligible: Scipio Aemilianus grieves the loss of an effective subordinate, the Arpinate Mariuses mourn the loss of the elder son, and Publius Rutilius Rufus and Jugurtha of Numidia mourn the loss of their drinking buddy.
However, future effects are boundless. Without Gaius Marius, the Numidian War is ineffectively continued by Quintus Caecilius Metellus. When the Cimbri defeat Quintus Servilius Caepio and Gnaeus Mallius Maximus at the Battle of Arausio, there's no effective commander in Rome that can be sent to defeat them.
The armies in Numidia are probably pulled out and Jugurtha overruns Rome's Africa province, probably negotiating a favorable peace that includes a little bit of land and a lot of gold. With the African army, Rome is in OTL's position, but without Gaius Marius.
If the Cimbri win the ensuing fight, Rome is finished as a world power. Jugurtha takes Africa, the Seleucids take parts of Asia Minor and fight the Ptolemys for the Levant, Mithridates comes to power in Pontus as in OTL (Rome didn't affect that much) and forges his dreamed-of megastate, Spaniards and Gauls jack Rome's western provinces up, and the Italian Allies decide that Roman citizenship is worthless, and go independent.
The Cimbri probably settle in warm, fertile Italy.
If the Cimbri lose, Rome takes higher losses and even more of its propertied men are dead. Sulla (not being Marius's quaestor as in OTL, and not capturing Jugurtha) remains a political unknown, THE Julius Caesar is probably not born (his mother and father met while dining at Publius Rutilius Rufus's--he being a friend of Gaius Marius [Caesar's father's brother-in-law] and an uncle of Caesar's mother), and Rome either falls apart or somebody else (a certain filthy rich Pompeius [whether Strabo or Magnus, I know not] comes to mind) thinks of Marius's ideas: to recruit from the proletarii, train hard, become super-effective, supply all their needs, and gain their everlasting loyalty. Thus saving Rome and creating a political system where a few military strongmen own the state (like OTL's Rome from 104BC to 391BC).
I think. Am I right in thinking that the situation in which smallholders' plots are sold to or seized by wealthy senators because of their absences due to military service and death was untenable; and that Rome would either fall apart, or be seized by strongmen who rewarded the proletarii with land?
Seriously, Rome's manpower pool was seriously affected from the Second Punic War on to the wars for Greece, Macedonia, and Asia Minor; no more smallholders means 70 or 80% of the army is gone.
With the Socii experiencing the same upheaval, I expect them to lose their shit no matter what, even if given the Citizenship.
???
"[Someone] thinks of him as a vile toad; the thing is, though, most toads don't decide on the future of our Res Publica."
So I got to thinking, What if some great man of Rome actually tripped on/was startled by a toad and died? Perhaps he falls off a defile, or falls into a swamp and drowns.
I got to thinking: where would this be most effective and entertaining at changing history?
So let's say that during the Siege of Numantia in 133BC, Gaius Marius trips on a toad and splatters his brains onto the rocks of Spain. Immediately the effects are negligible: Scipio Aemilianus grieves the loss of an effective subordinate, the Arpinate Mariuses mourn the loss of the elder son, and Publius Rutilius Rufus and Jugurtha of Numidia mourn the loss of their drinking buddy.
However, future effects are boundless. Without Gaius Marius, the Numidian War is ineffectively continued by Quintus Caecilius Metellus. When the Cimbri defeat Quintus Servilius Caepio and Gnaeus Mallius Maximus at the Battle of Arausio, there's no effective commander in Rome that can be sent to defeat them.
The armies in Numidia are probably pulled out and Jugurtha overruns Rome's Africa province, probably negotiating a favorable peace that includes a little bit of land and a lot of gold. With the African army, Rome is in OTL's position, but without Gaius Marius.
If the Cimbri win the ensuing fight, Rome is finished as a world power. Jugurtha takes Africa, the Seleucids take parts of Asia Minor and fight the Ptolemys for the Levant, Mithridates comes to power in Pontus as in OTL (Rome didn't affect that much) and forges his dreamed-of megastate, Spaniards and Gauls jack Rome's western provinces up, and the Italian Allies decide that Roman citizenship is worthless, and go independent.
The Cimbri probably settle in warm, fertile Italy.
If the Cimbri lose, Rome takes higher losses and even more of its propertied men are dead. Sulla (not being Marius's quaestor as in OTL, and not capturing Jugurtha) remains a political unknown, THE Julius Caesar is probably not born (his mother and father met while dining at Publius Rutilius Rufus's--he being a friend of Gaius Marius [Caesar's father's brother-in-law] and an uncle of Caesar's mother), and Rome either falls apart or somebody else (a certain filthy rich Pompeius [whether Strabo or Magnus, I know not] comes to mind) thinks of Marius's ideas: to recruit from the proletarii, train hard, become super-effective, supply all their needs, and gain their everlasting loyalty. Thus saving Rome and creating a political system where a few military strongmen own the state (like OTL's Rome from 104BC to 391BC).
I think. Am I right in thinking that the situation in which smallholders' plots are sold to or seized by wealthy senators because of their absences due to military service and death was untenable; and that Rome would either fall apart, or be seized by strongmen who rewarded the proletarii with land?
Seriously, Rome's manpower pool was seriously affected from the Second Punic War on to the wars for Greece, Macedonia, and Asia Minor; no more smallholders means 70 or 80% of the army is gone.
With the Socii experiencing the same upheaval, I expect them to lose their shit no matter what, even if given the Citizenship.
???