The Fourth Reich

A mini-timeline for you all. It's a scenario I've been kicking around. I'm sure things like it have been done before, but not in precisely the same way. If I do something with this, I'd like to avoid some lesser Sea Mammals, so I'd love some input/plausibility check on the details. I've moved it farther onto the wank end of the scale, so I can get a better idea of how much room I have to maneuver. I'm guessing this is about as good or better than Germany can possibly do. "Better" of course, is relative. Dates are approximate.

1938: Hitler assassinated by a disgruntled citizen. Depending on specific timing, this could be before or after the Munich conference, but let's say it's before Munich and after the Anschluss. Power struggle begins, and first between Himmler and Goering. Ultimately however, the General Staff steps in and overthrows the Nazi government in a successful putsch, followed by a purge of certain Nazi loyalists, especially in the SS and the SA, which are almost completely decapitated and reorganized into the Heer-controlled Wehrmacht.

1939: Though the new junta decides not to go through with the Nazi plans for Czechslovakia, they have irredentist impulses Poland. The Molotov-Ribbantrop pact and subsequent partition of Poland proceeds largely as our timeline, and as OTL provokes war with the Entente. After the invasion of Poland, former German lands are reclaimed and the remainder of Poland organized into a satellite rump state.

1940: Germany may or may not invade Denmark and Norway as OTL (not sure about this, don't know enough about the diplomatic/military situation). France and the low countries fall largely as OTL. Despite feints and perhaps some air raids, Germany does not attempt invasion of Britain, but instead launches an amphibious invasion of Malta in a joint operation with Italy. It uses Malta to wage an air and sea war against British assets in the Mediterranean, and as a staging area for a campaign in North Africa, where fighting has broken out between Italy and the Allies. Germany only formalizes its alliance with Italy, worried that Japan might drag Germany into war with either the USSR, the US, or both.

1941-1942: Invasion of North Africa by the Afrika Korps under Erwin Rommel. Though facing great logistical difficulties, Rommel is able to capture the Suez Canal and force an Allied withdrawal of North Africa. Japan bombs Pearl Harbor and brings the United States into war in the Pacific. Despite a policy of supporting the Allies, President Roosevelt is unable to secure a declaration of war against Germany.

1942: Germany offers Britain peace in exchange for the territories they'd lost in the war, plus Gibraltar, former German East Africa and some territories in the Middle East. Britain refuses. Germany launches a new offensive in the Middle East. Though they fall short of their full objectives, they manage to capture much of the Mandate of Palestine. Germany begins intense negotiations and threats with Franco's Spain about a possible invasion of Gibraltar. Franco refuses to join the neo-Central powers, but is powerless to prevent Germany from using Spanish territory during such an invasion without going to war with Germany, which he is unwilling to do.

1943: The Battle of Gibraltar, which would prove to be the bloodiest of the war. After heavy fighting on sea, air and land, Germany's invasion force, led by Erich von Manstein, succeeds in capturing Britain's all-important gateway to the Mediterranean. Winston Churchill's government collapses, to be replaced by one willing to make concessions in the name of peace. In the Treaty of Berlin, Germany keeps all of its conquered territories, perhaps with some redrawn borders in the Levant. Britain, France, and Belgium cede Cameroon, Gabon, French Congo, Belgian Congo, Rwanda, Burundi, and Tanzania, which become administrative regions of Deutsches Mittelafrika.

Post-1943: The junta reinstates the Kaiser (not Wilhelm but one of his sons) in a ceremonial role. The ensuing regime contains the trappings of democracy, but is primarily an authoritarian system, much like the German Empire, especially during the Silent Dictatorship. German imperial ideology and government incorporates Nazi ideas and structures. Treatment of Jews is inconsistent. Treatment of Slavs is almost uniformly bad, though some Germans regard Czechs as more "civilized." Treatment of women is an odd hybrid between conservative ideas about the primacy of the family and Nazi ideas about the primacy of male camaraderie, and the role of women to bear children for the nation. The state provides support for women who bear children out of wedlock, and opinions differ on how such women should be regarded.

The USSR and Germany had both strengthened the defenses on their frontiers and considered attacking the other, but ultimately decided against it as opposing defenses grew. Stalin decided to pursue a strategy in East Asia, taking Manchuria, Korea, and parts of China from Japan until the end of the Pacific war with American atomic attacks. Conquered territories will become Soviet republics and/or satellite states.

The new "Great Game" is largely played in space, with Germany and the United States constantly outdoing one another in the race of "firsts," and to weaponize space. The USSR and the British Empire maintain smaller presences in space, but pursue active manned space programs. The world is largely divided into spheres of influences between these four powers, who generally do not form lasting alliances with one another, though they will back one another in various crises.

History marches on, scarcely knowing the war it could have fought, or the peace it could have enjoyed.
 
The Molotov-Ribbantrop pact and subsequent partition of Poland proceeds largely as our timeline, and as OTL provokes war with the Entente.

That's the sticky. The Soviets were willing to swing their policy around by 180% after vainly trying to organise collective secuirty against Germany at every turn because they were convinced that the Entente would not listen and they should set the Germans on them. The reason? Munich. The Soviets had mobilised ready to fight, but all overtures to the Entente had been brushed aside.

If there's no Munich crisis, the situation is very differant. If Germany does what it did OTL (unilaterally renounces the Polish non-aggression pact and begins a propaganda blitz against Poland), Britain would certainly want to arrive at a Munich-style compromise. The German generals would probably take one if it was on offer.

But the Poles were adamant about not making concessions OTL. If Nazi aggression has been less flagrant so far, they might be cajoled into giving up Danzig by the Entente, but that depends on Germany being willing to settle for Danzig, if temporarily.

Otherwise, or when the Germans come back for me, the Poles might be thrust on the tender mercies of Stalin...

And there's the question of the Czechs, who are militarily more formidable than the Poles, have to say about all this.

France and the low countries fall largely as OTL.

Can't be done. Vast portions of German re-armament in the immediate run-up to WW2 was driven by plunder of Czechia: they repurposed lots of Czech materiel and made good use of the heavy industry at Shkoda and elsewhere. Germany without Bohemia and Moravia is in a much weaker position.

Indeed, if it does come to a German-Polish war, with the Germans much weaker... the Poles will be rapidly pushed back, sure, but they'll have more time (and they'll probably be receiving Soviet supplies). But the Germans will be left more exhausted (and they were pretty low on certain consumables after the September campaign as it was, and took nasty air losses) from an inferior starting position, and then there's the Czechs, who need to assist their guarantors France and the USSR. No guarantees that Germany would ever get a chance to point an army west in your scenario.
 
If the Nazis have been purged, you'll have a rather Prussian 'Junta' - they have nothing in mind with former Austrian lands, but quite a bone to pick with the Poles.
Danzig will not be enough, they'll go for reducing Poland to Russian Poland and take back all of Prussian Poland (not caring much for former Austrian Poland). - They might set up a puppet state in Rump-Poland or leave it to the Soviets, depending what is offered in return (oil, iron ore, coal, wheat, horses, etc.).
 

Eurofed

Banned
1938: Hitler assassinated by a disgruntled citizen. Depending on specific timing, this could be before or after the Munich conference, but let's say it's before Munich and after the Anschluss. Power struggle begins, and first between Himmler and Goering. Ultimately however, the General Staff steps in and overthrows the Nazi government in a successful putsch, followed by a purge of certain Nazi loyalists, especially in the SS and the SA, which are almost completely decapitated and reorganized into the Heer-controlled Wehrmacht.

There is an handy PoD for this available. Conveniently enough, it is just after Munich, which keeps the TL smoother by letting the Munich crisis go as OTL. On November 9, 1938, Maurice Bavaud tried to assassinate Hitler. If he had placed himself on the right side of the street, it is quite plausible that he could have got a good spot to shoot Hitler. Let's say that in your TL, he gets a good shot and Adolf is dead. There is infighting among the Nazi elite, the officer corps loses patience with them and stages a coup (one had been prepared in case the Munich crisis had escalated). The junta pruges the Nazis and dismantles the Gestapo and SS (by then, still largely a civilian paramilitary organization; the Waffen-SS were still embryonic).

1939: Though the new junta decides not to go through with the Nazi plans for Czechslovakia, they have irredentist impulses Poland.

Quite likely. Besides Hitler and the radical Nazi, the German nationalists did not want to annex Czechia after recovering the Sudetenland, but they definitely wanted Danzig and as much of the Corridor as they could afford without triggering a general war.

The Molotov-Ribbantrop pact and subsequent partition of Poland proceeds largely as our timeline, and as OTL provokes war with the Entente. After the invasion of Poland, former German lands are reclaimed and the remainder of Poland organized into a satellite rump state.

If Germany had not invaded Czechia, and in all likelihood managed its long-standing irredentist grievance with Poland with more diplomatic finesse than Nazi brutality, it is almost sure that Britain would push a Munich-like solution, offering Germany Danzig and some kind of compromise about the Corridor (which could range from extraterritorial highway or railway across the Corridor to a border revision to give Germany a land corridor), which the generals could accept. It is a coin's toss whether Poland would accept. Although if they do not, and Germany sets up a barely decent casus belli, the Entente shall not intervene.

Since the PoD left Munich into place, some kind of M-R scheme to partition Poland could occur between Germany and Russia if a war occurs. Likely terms would entail Germany being restored to the 1914 border, Russia annexing the Kresy, and the rest being set up as a German puppet.

However, in all likelihood, this would be a settlement that the Entente would find acceptable. Cross out WWII, it is not going to happen, unless Stalin channels his Red Alert self and goes into an expansionist rampage in mid-1940s. The generals certainly didn't care nowhere enough for Alsace-Lorraine or South Tyrol.

The only chance for the Entente to intervene in a German-Polish war would be if Germany bletantly betrays a previous Munich II settlement and comes back later asking for more, but even so, it is not very likely, since the Entente didn't declare war yet when Hitler invaded Czechia, the obvious analogy. Again, it would require Germany totally bungling its case on the political-diplomatic scene, and it is rather difficult to look more threatening and brutal to other countries than the Nazi.
 
Last edited:

Anaxagoras

Banned
If the Czechs are still in the picture, the Germans are not going to be able to conquer Poland, let alone France and the Low Countries. Not only did the Czechs have an excellent army of twenty or so divisions (IIRC), but a huge amount of the war material that allowed the Germans to take the offensive in late 1939 and 1940 had simply been looted from the Czech arsenal.
 
Thanks all. This is just what I was looking for, though I wasn't expecting it to happen about sentence two. Oh well. This is why AH is great for learning about history: get people who know the topic and they cut down misconceptions. I'm constantly arguing against the myth of German invincibility and here I go assuming it holds up until Barbarossa.

...The reason? Munich.
...
Can't be done. Vast portions of German re-armament in the immediate run-up to WW2 was driven by plunder of Czechia: they repurposed lots of Czech materiel and made good use of the heavy industry at Shkoda and elsewhere. Germany without Bohemia and Moravia is in a much weaker position.

Problem: Munich.

If the Czechs are still in the picture, the Germans are not going to be able to conquer Poland, let alone France and the Low Countries. Not only did the Czechs have an excellent army of twenty or so divisions (IIRC), but a huge amount of the war material that allowed the Germans to take the offensive in late 1939 and 1940 had simply been looted from the Czech arsenal.

Problem: Munich.

There is an handy PoD for this available. Conveniently enough, it is just after Munich, which keeps the TL smoother by letting the Munich crisis go as OTL. On November 9, 1938, Maurice Bavaud tried to assassinate Hitler....

Problem: Munich.

I've been underestimating it pretty strongly. Points taken. It's a very interesting question, this no-Munich Junkers thing. Probably not war, and probably more interesting than the scenario I've outlined. I'd definitely encourage further discussion on that to anyone who's interested now that the basic points about Munich have been demonstrated.

I want to look past 1938, though. Let's take Eurofed's suggestion and say Hitler is killed by Bauvaud, or someone else at about the same time. The generals want the 1914 borders back. They overreach and provoke war. Out of necessity, they plunder the Czechslovak arsenals and, though behind OTL's schedule, are able to mount a successful invasion of France in about 1940. I'm sure there are still problems with the scenario, but I don't want them to obscure questions about the military campaigns and the postwar order.

One of my goals in this thread is to break out of the standard counterfactuals about WWII in which we assume Nazis, Hitler, OTL events until, say, von Manstein has to realize that he shouldn't be in Stalingrad, and Goering has to realize that he shouldn't be over England, but neither of them is allowed to realize this because the man they're trying to talk to doesn't want to listen to such details. If you've got a good idea, Swastika Brown has other ideas. We can't imagine a one-front war because Hitler was never going to leave Russia or the British Isles alone, and he didn't have the patience not to multitask. Take That Of Which We Do Not Speak. To stand a chance, our aquatic frenemy needs to be paradropped in by flying mammals from other worlds, but as long as Racist McMegalomaniac is running the show, that's the plan.

If the Nazis have been purged, you'll have a rather Prussian 'Junta' - they have nothing in mind with former Austrian lands, but quite a bone to pick with the Poles.
Danzig will not be enough, they'll go for reducing Poland to Russian Poland and take back all of Prussian Poland (not caring much for former Austrian Poland). - They might set up a puppet state in Rump-Poland or leave it to the Soviets, depending what is offered in return (oil, iron ore, coal, wheat, horses, etc.).

Interesting here is if Nazi/pan-German concerns have dried up the well of Entente patience for German irredentism by the time the Prussians are in charge. It seems you can mess with the borders of Czechslovakia, and you can mess with the borders of Poland, and you can avoid war, but not all three. Fast, cheap, good, pick two.

Once again, works better after the Munich crisis. I'm newly interested in this other scenario, though--the Prussians don't want Czechslovakia, they don't even want the Sudetenland, really. Munich 2.0 over Danzig and parts of Poland, and we may have avoided this big 'ol war, and instead have a very interesting 20th century that doesn't really resolve its tension but somehow manages to achieve everyone's favorite dream, collective security.

So thoughts about Prussia's war and/or Prussia's peace?
 
I'm sorry but I believe this is 100% ASB, as the only people in Germany who truly wanted to go to war and attack Poland, France, Russia, America, Britain were the nazis. The military every single time tried to convince Hitler not to attck, that they would not win, the chiefs of the army in 1937 quit their jobs after just hearing Hitler ideas of stating a war, so why if the military took charge with no nazis why they do the thing they had been telling Hitler right until every campaign began not to do?
 
I'm sorry but I believe this is 100% ASB, as the only people in Germany who truly wanted to go to war and attack Poland, France, Russia, America, Britain were the nazis. The military every single time tried to convince Hitler not to attck, that they would not win, the chiefs of the army in 1937 quit their jobs after just hearing Hitler ideas of stating a war, so why if the military took charge with no nazis why they do the thing they had been telling Hitler right until every campaign began not to do?

Fair enough. I have some interesting ideas about the political system of such a junta, and some other developments, but it's clear that they aren't going to start this war, which is characteristically Nazi.

One more try: Disgruntled Hitler assassin just after the campaigns in France. Overtures of peace rejected. Mediterranean war as described. Thoughts?
 
Let's say Hitler is killed as described and the Nazis are no longer the dominant party in 1938. Germany's biggest claim to European territory was that ceded at Versailles: the Alsace Rhineland, the Polish Corridor, the Sudetenland. The powers that be agree that it is not worth a world war to recover these territories.

But Germany has a substantial military-industrial complex. There is dissent in the Ukraine against Stalin and the Soviets. Suppose they instigate a rebellion, essentially a Soviet civil war that cleaves the Ukraine off into an independent country and a grateful German ally. Fiercely independent Poland allies with the winning side because they are in the line of fire in a Soviet assault to the west.

With treaties to access the Black Sea, Germany expands its navy. Circa 1942, the Germans make a deal with Ho Chi Minn to liberate Indochina from the French. Germany gets leases on Hong Kong like colonies on the coast in exchange for Vietnamese independence. This is Germany's first military engagement with France. Germany now has colonies in Asia and Africa, ceded from France.

It's now 1944. Japan has not attacked the US and its oil supply has remained uninterrupted. Japan is itching for territory. Where will they attack and what role might Germany play?

The US has not gone into war production. Television expands as the new audio-visual medium. In Europe, millions of Russians and German Jews are still alive and productive.
 
Sorry if I come across as slightly tert below; I'm just slightly exasperated by this persistant misconception. Please, take nothing personally. :)

There is dissent in the Ukraine against Stalin and the Soviets. Suppose they instigate a rebellion, essentially a Soviet civil war that cleaves the Ukraine off into an independent country and a grateful German ally.

How could Soviet Ukrainians dissent against the Soviets any more than I as a Scotsman could dissent against the British? Being a "Soviet" and a "Ukrainian" was not in any way mutually exclusive, and most people in the Ukrainian SSR would have identified themselves as Soviets. I'm pretty sure you could get a majority for "communist", too; certainly in the cities.

So, was there dissent? Yes, freethinkers exist everywhere; however most of the people involved in clandestine criticism of the regime would have considered themselves Soviet communists - possibly Stalinist. Stalin, like Hitler, was a man who had an incredibly effective public face (albiet a very differant one: Stalin's legend was cultivated everywhere, but the man himself was rarely seen) and was widely seen as wise, just, and effective by people who cursed his subordinates and the effects of his decrees every day. "If only Stalin could know!" Ukraine was no exception to this rule.

So, was there anti-Soviet nationalist dissent? Not all Ukrainian nationalism, by the way, is anti-Soviet, and the Soviets spent the 1920s aggressively promoting Ukrainian nationalism; the beginning of the move towards "Russia as eldest brother of the Soviet family" was of course signalled by a purge and show-trials. The buzz this caused in the Ukrainian intelligentsia, however, was almost entirely unconnected to the discontent of the countryside.

Ukraine did experience the most severe disorders during collectivisation and the famines (although there certainly was disorder elsewhere, so it clearly wasn't all connected to local nationalisms - and of course lots of Ukrainian peasants went to the pro-Soviet atmosphere of the cities), and perhaps there were some connections between that and latent nationalism. However, the elaborate narrative of "Ukrainian nationalist saboteur masterminds in league with Pilsudski to destroy the worker's state! Traitors! Wreckers, white guards, and kulaks! Everywhere! TRAITORS!" was made up by the KGB and revealed to the Ukrainian intelligentsia in elaborately choreographed show-trials.

There may have been some anti-Soviet nationalism among the collectivised peasants - there by no means had to have been - but there was no conspiracy capable of arming and organising them, except perhaps in Stalin's mind. The Poles did maintain a bureau for "Prometheism", but it had shrunk to nothing by the late 30s, a supper-club for emigres.

So, if we snap our fingers and make the Ukrainian peasants anti-Soviet nationalist - not only nationalist, indeed, but also organised - where do they get the guns to take on the Red Army? The Soviets exercised ruthless border control from the Black Sea to the Baltic, and the secret police were always sniffing for interventionists - a brief storm about the conditions of Soviet Germans in the Reichsdeutsch press and an aid campaign under the aegis of Hindenburg were enough to set them barking. Actual deliveries of weapons by the German Fascist White Guard?

The Soviets had dealt frankly with revolts before, and would do so afterwards. Personally, I don't think such a revolt could even have materialised.
 
Last edited:

Blair152

Banned
A mini-timeline for you all. It's a scenario I've been kicking around. I'm sure things like it have been done before, but not in precisely the same way. If I do something with this, I'd like to avoid some lesser Sea Mammals, so I'd love some input/plausibility check on the details. I've moved it farther onto the wank end of the scale, so I can get a better idea of how much room I have to maneuver. I'm guessing this is about as good or better than Germany can possibly do. "Better" of course, is relative. Dates are approximate.

1938: Hitler assassinated by a disgruntled citizen. Depending on specific timing, this could be before or after the Munich conference, but let's say it's before Munich and after the Anschluss. Power struggle begins, and first between Himmler and Goering. Ultimately however, the General Staff steps in and overthrows the Nazi government in a successful putsch, followed by a purge of certain Nazi loyalists, especially in the SS and the SA, which are almost completely decapitated and reorganized into the Heer-controlled Wehrmacht.

1939: Though the new junta decides not to go through with the Nazi plans for Czechslovakia, they have irredentist impulses Poland. The Molotov-Ribbantrop pact and subsequent partition of Poland proceeds largely as our timeline, and as OTL provokes war with the Entente. After the invasion of Poland, former German lands are reclaimed and the remainder of Poland organized into a satellite rump state.

1940: Germany may or may not invade Denmark and Norway as OTL (not sure about this, don't know enough about the diplomatic/military situation). France and the low countries fall largely as OTL. Despite feints and perhaps some air raids, Germany does not attempt invasion of Britain, but instead launches an amphibious invasion of Malta in a joint operation with Italy. It uses Malta to wage an air and sea war against British assets in the Mediterranean, and as a staging area for a campaign in North Africa, where fighting has broken out between Italy and the Allies. Germany only formalizes its alliance with Italy, worried that Japan might drag Germany into war with either the USSR, the US, or both.

1941-1942: Invasion of North Africa by the Afrika Korps under Erwin Rommel. Though facing great logistical difficulties, Rommel is able to capture the Suez Canal and force an Allied withdrawal of North Africa. Japan bombs Pearl Harbor and brings the United States into war in the Pacific. Despite a policy of supporting the Allies, President Roosevelt is unable to secure a declaration of war against Germany.

1942: Germany offers Britain peace in exchange for the territories they'd lost in the war, plus Gibraltar, former German East Africa and some territories in the Middle East. Britain refuses. Germany launches a new offensive in the Middle East. Though they fall short of their full objectives, they manage to capture much of the Mandate of Palestine. Germany begins intense negotiations and threats with Franco's Spain about a possible invasion of Gibraltar. Franco refuses to join the neo-Central powers, but is powerless to prevent Germany from using Spanish territory during such an invasion without going to war with Germany, which he is unwilling to do.

1943: The Battle of Gibraltar, which would prove to be the bloodiest of the war. After heavy fighting on sea, air and land, Germany's invasion force, led by Erich von Manstein, succeeds in capturing Britain's all-important gateway to the Mediterranean. Winston Churchill's government collapses, to be replaced by one willing to make concessions in the name of peace. In the Treaty of Berlin, Germany keeps all of its conquered territories, perhaps with some redrawn borders in the Levant. Britain, France, and Belgium cede Cameroon, Gabon, French Congo, Belgian Congo, Rwanda, Burundi, and Tanzania, which become administrative regions of Deutsches Mittelafrika.

Post-1943: The junta reinstates the Kaiser (not Wilhelm but one of his sons) in a ceremonial role. The ensuing regime contains the trappings of democracy, but is primarily an authoritarian system, much like the German Empire, especially during the Silent Dictatorship. German imperial ideology and government incorporates Nazi ideas and structures. Treatment of Jews is inconsistent. Treatment of Slavs is almost uniformly bad, though some Germans regard Czechs as more "civilized." Treatment of women is an odd hybrid between conservative ideas about the primacy of the family and Nazi ideas about the primacy of male camaraderie, and the role of women to bear children for the nation. The state provides support for women who bear children out of wedlock, and opinions differ on how such women should be regarded.

The USSR and Germany had both strengthened the defenses on their frontiers and considered attacking the other, but ultimately decided against it as opposing defenses grew. Stalin decided to pursue a strategy in East Asia, taking Manchuria, Korea, and parts of China from Japan until the end of the Pacific war with American atomic attacks. Conquered territories will become Soviet republics and/or satellite states.

The new "Great Game" is largely played in space, with Germany and the United States constantly outdoing one another in the race of "firsts," and to weaponize space. The USSR and the British Empire maintain smaller presences in space, but pursue active manned space programs. The world is largely divided into spheres of influences between these four powers, who generally do not form lasting alliances with one another, though they will back one another in various crises.

History marches on, scarcely knowing the war it could have fought, or the peace it could have enjoyed.
There's a website called Luft '46. In order for there to be a Fourth Reich on
the heels of the Third Reich, you'd have to have a POD of 1946. If World War II had lasted into 1946, then Hitler would need some breathing room.
He'd need to buy enough time to build more Me. 262s, the Volksjager, the
Arado Ar. 240, and the Horten Ho X. That would mean the United States,
Britain, and the other Western Allies, would have to field jets of their own,
like the Gloster Meteor and the P-80 Shooting Star. As for the Soviet Union? Who knows? Would Stalin still be on our side in 1946? I leave that for you to decide.
 
One of my goals in this thread is to break out of the standard counterfactuals about WWII in which we assume Nazis, Hitler, OTL events until, say, von Manstein has to realize that he shouldn't be in Stalingrad, and Goering has to realize that he shouldn't be over England, but neither of them is allowed to realize this because the man they're trying to talk to doesn't want to listen to such details. If you've got a good idea, Swastika Brown has other ideas. We can't imagine a one-front war because Hitler was never going to leave Russia or the British Isles alone, and he didn't have the patience not to multitask. Take That Of Which We Do Not Speak. To stand a chance, our aquatic frenemy needs to be paradropped in by flying mammals from other worlds, but as long as Racist McMegalomaniac is running the show, that's the plan.


Sounds like you should have Hitler alive and in power until the war has started and THEN dead (from whatever cause). Sounds like your pupose is better left with the Nazi's still in power, but Hitler dead. The magic question being before or after Barbarossa.
 
Would Stalin still be on our side in 1946? I leave that for you to decide.

The Soviets would be on our side for as long as it took to destroy German military power. They were very worried about the prospect of a seperate peace, so they hardly want to provoke one, given how incredibly exhausted and devestated they were by the end of the war.
 
Sounds like you should have Hitler alive and in power until the war has started and THEN dead (from whatever cause). Sounds like your pupose is better left with the Nazi's still in power, but Hitler dead. The magic question being before or after Barbarossa.

I have made this concession (before Barbarossa). It is difficult to break out of the OP...a 1938 coup is a very interesting question, but produces a very different scenario than the one I outlined. So I'm thinking, 1940 coup. France has fallen, and Goering has been ordered to train the Sea Mammals, when the message comes in over the wires, Der Führer ist tot.

The generals are probably going to ask for peace with the Allies, and if the Allies accept everybody wins--France is spared occupation, Britain the blitz, USSR the land war. Germany gets to keep Danzig and maybe the corridor, Czechslovakia gets to exist again, though perhaps without the Sudetenland. Millions of people, especially Jews, are spared. Poland still loses, but not as badly.

What if the Allies reject the overtures? I maintain that the Mediterranean strategy described is Germany's best bet, and the generals are likely to realize this. I think I might be stretching plausibility with Gibraltar and the Levant, but it seems within Germany and Italy's capabilities to take Malta and Egypt without having to worry about bombing Britain or invading the USSR.
 
Top