The Four Horsemen: the Nuclear Apocalypse of 1962

The point is that while the war may have happened as it did ITTL but if it did the recovery of the USA would not have happened as ITTL. The banking system has gone there is literally no one left to lend the USA money so no debt financed economy is possible.

A USA recovering like West Europe with the Mashall plan would not happen. More like Europe after WW1 (and Europe did not have large parts of its industrial potential, the banking system and most of its wealth blown to radioactive ashes).
 
Kinda shocked it took so long to attempt a rebuild of nuked American cities... aside from New York and DC, I would think radiation would subsidie quickly.
 
What happened to Philippines tho.
Subic Bay got hit.

I wonder how does technology advance in TTL? I can't imagine there'd be much interest in space exploration given the circumstances, yet I could see some form of internet being developed sooner than OTL's.
I'd imagine space exploration to be more limited given how much it costs. As the TL stands, the US may start to think about it in the 90s.

Great update. Thank you. One very minor point. Though one was planned since the late 1950's. There was no World Trade Center in NYC at the time of WWIII. It was constructed in the late 1960's/70's. There would have been no ruins of it to rebuild.
Fixed.

That seem quite out of characters for De Gaulle to become a dictator even after a nuclear war
Perhaps if it would keep worse characters out of power.

The point is that while the war may have happened as it did ITTL but if it did the recovery of the USA would not have happened as ITTL. The banking system has gone there is literally no one left to lend the USA money so no debt financed economy is possible.

A USA recovering like West Europe with the Mashall plan would not happen. More like Europe after WW1 (and Europe did not have large parts of its industrial potential, the banking system and most of its wealth blown to radioactive ashes).
This is 1962, not 1983. The Southern hemisphere is virtually intact, so there would be banks. It wouldn't be the best banks, but still. Besides that Modern Monetary Theory argues, in short, that a government can finance any budget deficit by de facto monetization and hence have no monetary limits. When a genuine national emergency arises like nuclear war, the government spends first, the central bank helps, and questions are asked later. Given that the US is not destroyed, there is still a central bank.

Inflation is an obvious concern, but that can be controlled by increasing the interest rate strongly. Secondly, MMT argues inflation can be dealt with through taxation as it reduces the spending capacity of the private sector. Assuming the validity of MMT, which is heavily debated, there are still limitations as to how far a government can go, but in an unprecedented situation like this I figured the world, i.e. all those governments and (central) banks that have survived, will roll with it. There's no other choice.

Moreover, the government of a country with plenty of natural resources, surviving industrial muscle, and still lots of human capital like the United States can print money to generate prosperity, especially if there's local consensus. The US has the power domestically to do that if it chooses, and also has the power internationally to force other countries to accept the newly-minted money, backed by reduced economic value, in exchange for the goods and services, machinery and talent that it requires for development.

Kinda shocked it took so long to attempt a rebuild of nuked American cities... aside from New York and DC, I would think radiation would subsidie quickly.
Well, what the US underwent was like the Great Patriotic War for the Soviet Union, except it's condensed into one week. That's not something you recover from easily.

I wonder if you could cover sports, pop culture and what future famous people are up to in TTL.
There will be more pop culture references.
 
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Ficboy

Banned
Subic Bay got hit.



I'd imagine space exploration to be more limited given how much it costs. As the TL stands, the US may start to think about it in the 90s.



Fixed.



Perhaps if it would keep worse characters out of power.



This is 1962, not 1983. The Southern hemisphere is virtually intact, so there would be banks. It wouldn't be the best banks, but still. Besides that Modern Monetary Theory argues, in short, that a government can finance any budget deficit by de facto monetization and hence have no monetary limits. When a genuine national emergency arises like nuclear war, the government spends first, the central bank helps, and questions are asked later. Given that the US is not destroyed, there is still a central bank.

Inflation is an obvious concern, but that can be controlled by increasing the interest rate strongly. Secondly, MMT argues inflation can be dealt with through taxation as it reduces the spending capacity of the private sector. Assuming the validity of MMT, which is heavily debated, there are still limitations as to how far a government can go, but in an unprecedented situation like this I figured the world, i.e. all those governments and (central) banks that have survived, will roll with it. There's no other choice.

Moreover, the government of a country with plenty of natural resources, surviving industrial muscle, and still lots of human capital like the United States can print money to generate prosperity, especially if there's local consensus. The US has the power domestically to do that if it chooses, and also has the power internationally to force other countries to accept the newly-minted money, backed by reduced economic value, in exchange for the goods and services, machinery and talent that it requires for development.



Well, what the US underwent was like the Great Patriotic War for the Soviet Union, except it's condensed into one week. That's not something you recover from easily.



There will be more pop culture references.
Pop culture and sports would be completely different in The Four Horsemen. The offices of entertainment media companies and sports leagues almost all of whom are based in New York City or Los Angeles would be obliterated thus they would be forced to suspend operations for the time being and start somewhere else when they resume. Some of their key figures might even die and thus there might not be a modern Marvel Universe and DC Universe or Star Wars and no relocation of specific sports teams depending on the fates of specific people such as Stan Lee and George Lucas.
 
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Irvine

Banned
One important feature I believe was still not addressed: the United States's military top priority research would be their anti-missile defense system. By 2020, we may have a functional system capable of fully deflecting a signification amount of missiles during a nuclear war. Further development of these technologies in hampered in today's OTL due to the need to keep the balance between nuclear powers, but I doubt anyone would care about this anymore in this story.

The red lasers are coming.
 
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Pop culture and sports would be completely different in The Four Horsemen. The offices of entertainment media companies and sports leagues almost all of whom are based in New York City or Los Angeles would be obliterated thus they would be forced to suspend operations for the time being and start somewhere else when they resume. Some of their key figures might even die and thus there might not be a modern Marvel Universe and DC Universe or Star Wars and no relocation of specific sports teams depending on the fates of specific people such as Stan Lee and George Lucas.
Both Marvel and DC are gone and I believe Archie is toast too given Mamaroneck's proximity to NYC. It is possible that Charlton Comics survived since it was based out of Derby, Connecticut, but I'm not certain that comic books would be in high demand in the immediate aftermath of the war so it is highly probable that it went belly up. One possibility is Fawcett, which was based in Minnesota, but not entirely sure where it was headquartered in 1962. Wilford Fawcett founded the company in Robbinsdale so it might have survived for a possible reentry into the comic book industry at some point.

There is also the possibility that a third party could have purchased the rights DC and Marvel library of characters (though reprints of older material would be impossible) since the original owners are dead and gone. One thing to note is that the modern incarnation of Marvel Comics had only existed for a year up to the war so it was effectively incinerated in the crib.
 
Onkel Willie this is money printing economy not debt economy. You have had the USA having lots of debt and that simply won‘t happen. It can drop off the gold standard and start printing money but once you force people to accept those devaluing dollars in exchange for goods you become a robber.

And yes there were some banks in the southern hemisphere but not even a drop in the bucket. Imagine Europe 1945 without Marshall.
 
While a reaction against the curtailment of civil liberties in the UK is likely in much the manner you've described, I think that your story about the Liberals becoming the Liberal Democrats is very unlikely.

I would also argue that labour are likely to be a lot less powerful than you imagine in the immediate post war years.

Here's my reasoning:

* You describe a section of Labour breaking off as a result of a 'grand alliance' with the Conservative party. This is certainly possible, however you describe them as identifying as Social Democrats and aligning with the Liberals. This is very unlikely because those who leave the Labour party are likely to be those who do not agree with the Conservatives centre right politics. I.e, they are likely to be socialists. Why would socialists who are protesting a move to the right then call themselves Social Democrats (a move to the right) and align with Liberals (who are centerists)?

* The Labour partys base is in industrial areas and cities. The same areas that were the worst affected in the war. I would therefore have them be a lot weaker.

*I would also consider the possibility of the rise of regionalist, independent and single issue parties. The war and the immediate post war situation will have led to a large number of people becoming dissatisfied with government. I would expect to see the balance of power in places like Wales and Scotland swing away from the now destroyed cities and towards the more rural Welsh or Highland areas. What I'm trying to say is I think you'd see the earlier rise of socially conservative, economically left wing parties in places like Scotland and Wales concurrent with the rise of the Liberals in suburban and rural England.

*Finally you may wish to comment on Northern Ireland which was a huge issue in UK politics at the time.
 
Both Marvel and DC are gone and I believe Archie is toast too given Mamaroneck's proximity to NYC. It is possible that Charlton Comics survived since it was based out of Derby, Connecticut, but I'm not certain that comic books would be in high demand in the immediate aftermath of the war so it is highly probable that it went belly up. One possibility is Fawcett, which was based in Minnesota, but not entirely sure where it was headquartered in 1962. Wilford Fawcett founded the company in Robbinsdale so it might have survived for a possible reentry into the comic book industry at some point.

There is also the possibility that a third party could have purchased the rights DC and Marvel library of characters (though reprints of older material would be impossible) since the original owners are dead and gone. One thing to note is that the modern incarnation of Marvel Comics had only existed for a year up to the war so it was effectively incinerated in the crib.
NYC-headquartered Dell is also gone, so no more Donald Duck for the time being -- welp, Barks was past his prime by 1962 anyhow, and maybe now Rosa gets to do his engineering/history nerd stuff properly without being constrained by limitations of the Duck universe.
 

Irvine

Banned
L
While a reaction against the curtailment of civil liberties in the UK is likely in much the manner you've described, I think that your story about the Liberals becoming the Liberal Democrats is very unlikely.

I would also argue that labour are likely to be a lot less powerful than you imagine in the immediate post war years.

Here's my reasoning:

* You describe a section of Labour breaking off as a result of a 'grand alliance' with the Conservative party. This is certainly possible, however you describe them as identifying as Social Democrats and aligning with the Liberals. This is very unlikely because those who leave the Labour party are likely to be those who do not agree with the Conservatives centre right politics. I.e, they are likely to be socialists. Why would socialists who are protesting a move to the right then call themselves Social Democrats (a move to the right) and align with Liberals (who are centerists)?

* The Labour partys base is in industrial areas and cities. The same areas that were the worst affected in the war. I would therefore have them be a lot weaker.

*I would also consider the possibility of the rise of regionalist, independent and single issue parties. The war and the immediate post war situation will have led to a large number of people becoming dissatisfied with government. I would expect to see the balance of power in places like Wales and Scotland swing away from the now destroyed cities and towards the more rural Welsh or Highland areas. What I'm trying to say is I think you'd see the earlier rise of socially conservative, economically left wing parties in places like Scotland and Wales concurrent with the rise of the Liberals in suburban and rural England.

*Finally you may wish to comment on Northern Ireland which was a huge issue in UK politics at the time.
Labour would get heavily discredited due to being leftist, and the Soviets being the responsible for the nuclear destruction of a good part of Britain.
 
L

Labour would get heavily discredited due to being leftist, and the Soviets being the responsible for the nuclear destruction of a good part of Britain.
No. Unlike in the US where anything left of being a liberal is Communism, in the UK we do not confuse Socialists and Social Democrats with Communists. Particularly in the 1960s and 70s.

You're applying modern day, most likely American, values to a mid-20th Century UK. This is bad historical analysis.
 

Irvine

Banned
No. Unlike in the US where anything left of being a liberal is Communism, in the UK we do not confuse Socialists and Social Democrats with Communists. Particularly in the 1960s and 70s.

You're applying modern day, most likely American, values to a mid-20th Century UK. This is bad historical analysis.
You look personally offended, maybe you could work your internal issues better?

The thing is, you are underestimating the potential of a nuclear holocaust to radicalize political views. This is a far bigger trauma than the one who gave Germany to the Nazis in a plate.
 
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No. Unlike in the US where anything left of being a liberal is Communism, in the UK we do not confuse Socialists and Social Democrats with Communists. Particularly in the 1960s and 70s.

You're applying modern day, most likely American, values to a mid-20th Century UK. This is bad historical analysis.
1962 Labour leader Hugh Gaitskell was staunchly anti- Communist.
 
I wonder how will the IDR be like: neo-Stalinist shithole, democratic socialist utopia (for post-apocalyptic standards) or somewhere in between? The loss of Rome and several millennia of history will be a huge blow on morale for the country though, even more so than the Pope having been turned to ash. Personally, I would've gladly sacrificed several million people more to save those cities from being erased from the face of the planet, human beings have a very limited lifespan, unlike archaeological and historical records.
That's easy to say when you're not one of the people being sacrificed.
 
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