For all the tropes of 'French Collapse', many French units fought with great courage and determination. It was poor coordination and communication - and the misuse of the armoured forces - that was the big issue
The Forge of Weyland
- Thread starter Astrodragon
- Start date
Huntzinger really got away with murder OTL.
TTL, Billotte has a reserve going in, he knows its his last card, and the last thing he needs is a reluctant and timorous General in charge of 2nd Army. If both attacks fail, so be it, but he's going to try. After all, what is the alternative?
And wasting LW support on terror bombing because the Dutch have frustrated him seems a very Hitler thing to do
Derek Pullem
Donor
And that seems to be the big difference. it's not that the French (and others) are doing better than could be expected in the circumstances. It's just that they are doing what they could be reasonably expected to do time after time without a general collapse and rout.
It's still an impressive advance by the Germans worthy of the "blitzkrieg" tag - but it is just a bit slower and stickier than OTL.
Remember, though, that at this point the Germans have three armoured breakthroughs heading west - 1/2 panzer, 6/8 Panzer and 5/7 panzer divisions. They need to be stopped, and the French haven't done that yet
True
BUT they have not FAILED to do that yet - they are still in the fight.
The Germans have thrown less double 6's and the Allies less Snakes eyes.
the issue is 6/8th panzer since their supply lines arent about to be attacked and they can probably pivot north to go fight the 7th army i think wich might make for bad tank numbers for entente since the southern pincer already has 3 divisons altough abandoning the north and fighting at sedan instead might also make sense if the german high command screams at the panzers enough.
Background Question....
I'm realizing as I'm reading the descriptions and looking at maps, my 47-year old brain has been visualizing all the roads in Holland, Belgium and France as being paved. Upon reflection, I'm realizing that is likely incredibly inaccurate. If someone has a moment, if you could describe the roads of the theatre in this era, I would incredibly grateful.
I'm realizing as I'm reading the descriptions and looking at maps, my 47-year old brain has been visualizing all the roads in Holland, Belgium and France as being paved. Upon reflection, I'm realizing that is likely incredibly inaccurate. If someone has a moment, if you could describe the roads of the theatre in this era, I would incredibly grateful.
French
Sorry, I assume the main roads aren't too bad, but I suspect the minor road are... less well kept.
Given where everyone is, IV Corps and 5/7 Panzer are going to run into each other first.
6/8 Panzer are more likely to engage 7th Army, which puts them at an advantage in tanks and a big disadvantage in infantry
1/2 Panzer are happily motoring off in the hope of a seaside holiday, while 10th Panzer is heavily tied down near Sedan
You can just see the road....
maximietteita.blogspot.com
This week in the War, 13–19 May 1940: German breakthrough at Sedan
This week in the war, with their invasion of the Low Countries well under way, German forces attacked the town of Sedan in the Ardennes region of France. Re
secondbysecondworldwar.com
German Panzer force 10 May 1940
The German Panzer force at the start of World War II was not especially impressive. Only 4% of the defense budget was spent on armored fight...
maximietteita.blogspot.com
Just as a teaser, tank production figures for April-June 1940
(German and French ones are OTL, British are new)
Britain : 180 Sabre, 90 Cutlass, 60 Matilda II, 45 Scimitar (intended for Egypt), 375 medium tanks OTL was 290 medium tanks plus some lights
France : 55 S-40 (was S-35 OTL), 100 Char B, 25 Char D2, 200 R-35 and 215 H35/9. So 180 medium tanks and 415 light-ish ones
Germany : 174 Pz III, 53 Pz IV, 90 Pz (38)t, and about 30 of the new Stug III. That's 345 medium tanks (being generous to the 38t here)
So in terms of medium tanks, the Allies are getting close to twice the German output.
(German and French ones are OTL, British are new)
Britain : 180 Sabre, 90 Cutlass, 60 Matilda II, 45 Scimitar (intended for Egypt), 375 medium tanks OTL was 290 medium tanks plus some lights
France : 55 S-40 (was S-35 OTL), 100 Char B, 25 Char D2, 200 R-35 and 215 H35/9. So 180 medium tanks and 415 light-ish ones
Germany : 174 Pz III, 53 Pz IV, 90 Pz (38)t, and about 30 of the new Stug III. That's 345 medium tanks (being generous to the 38t here)
So in terms of medium tanks, the Allies are getting close to twice the German output.
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Driftless
Donor
So, even IF there is an OTL Dunkirk level disaster ahead, the British and maybe the French are much more capable of replenishing their forces than OTL. That would affect immediate and long-term decision-making, I'd think. Basically, some invasion concern, but not panic. (Framing the thought in the worst case scenario)
And of course the Allies also have USA and their Empires production as well at the moment.
Which is an issue for anything not armoured. This is actually the mobility issue which leads to Germany speccing armoured SP artillery in April 42 based on the experience in Russia. By definition almost the Artillery will lag several km behind the other combat arms and run into MG fire forcing them to either unlimber and try to engage them with direct fire which runs the risk of the crews and particularly the prime movers being disabled motor through losing movers. or more likely scream for help and have a panzer or the recon unit turn about and try to clear out the holdouts, same issue for any of the follow on columns with food fuel ammo etc and a major problem for repair and recovery efforts. as long as it goes on.
And two other effects. Less opposition to air recon efforts which makes focusing attacks in the right place possible and more wear on the Luftwaffe. Most of its degradation in strength is minor damage or mechanical failure not repairable in time for the next sortie. The German method was to fly spares up using Ju52 currently crashed of down for maintenance themselves. You can still fix them but it means posting the spares or using trucks or trains to move things about more Grit. Over the OTL timescale it does matter much. especially with the Allies themselves having to displace forward airfields and recovering from the initial German attacks.
Very good in the main If you look at pics from any point in the war you get the idea the main change from 1940 - 1944 would be where a Bailey Bridge has been put up. France in particular has the highest numbers of cars and motor vehicles of any country in europe and roads to match also gas stations to match. 21st army group motors 300 odd miles in 4 days in 1944.
And the key point is the metalled roads are where the bridges are and there are a lot of rivers and canals.
XXVII corps is 2 4th wave divisions with very little artillery. The Belgians may not be highly rated but they do badly trained reservists led by overage retreads and are sitting in trenches with machine guns.
No-one ever said the German Army wasn't optimistic at times.
I'm no expert on the soviets but I would expect that if the Nazis had done the smart thing and made its main axis of attack the Baku oil fields at the start of Barbarossa, then the SU may very well have collapsed much like Tsarist Russia did. Russia is essentially the only country in the world that could afford to give ground to the extent that the SU did in 1941.
Stalingrad ended over a year after Barbarossa, being denied basically all of its oil (80%) for that length of time wouldn't have been sustainable.
Baku is a hell of a long way from the line of demarcation in Poland. Bloody good luck getting there before the Autumn rains make the roads impassable even without a flank wide open to attack.