And this is a hot button issue in France politically and has been for some time now, the conscript army is the expression of the Nation, a professional army is a bunch of coup plotters out to extinguish Republican liberties and slaughter the communards see also Petain.
The Forge of Weyland
- Thread starter Astrodragon
- Start date
And this is a hot button issue in France politically and has been for some time now, the conscript army is the expression of the Nation, a professional army is a bunch of coup plotters out to extinguish Republican liberties and slaughter the communards see also Petain.
And that's exactly what a professional (German) Army did!
Only problem is the German Army was a conscript army not a professional one.And that's exactly what a professional (German) Army did!
Conscript troops with a solid core of regular highly trained officers and nco's.
And ofc in 1944 when it is a conscript army it stays loyal to Nazi virtues.
May 15 Holland and BEF
15th May - Holland
The Dutch forces forward of the water line fell back as planned, as the German attack was renewed now that they were able to use some of the bridges they needed. The German commander now had a problem; the time the demolitions had allowed the Dutch meant that the bulk of their forces were now manning the Water Line and the rest of the pre-war fortifications. The airborne attack had failed, with heavy losses, so the only way now was an attack against a very strong defensive position. While he had no doubt that this would work, it would take time and he would take heavy losses. The forts, inundations and river lines meant his panzers would not be effective, so it would be down to the infantry and artillery advancing on foot to do things the old-fashioned way.
Back in Berlin, High Command was annoyed the Dutch situation had not already been solved. While one part of the attack - the diversion of attention to the north and away from the Ardennes area - had been successful, the second, the elimination of Holland and the occupation of the northern Rhine crossings, had not. There seemed to be two possibilities. A methodical attack, using the units already in place, or to hold opposite the Dutch defences, keeping them there while they released some divisions for a new attack on the Dyle line, and coming back to deal with the recaltriant Dutch later.
Neither of these was particularly appealing, however a new alternative was suggested by Goering. Already angry at the defeat of his airborne attack, he offered to flatten Rotterdam. Such a devastating attack would surely cause the Dutch to surrender.
Accordingly, on the afternoon of the 15th, a large formation of over 100 He111 bombers attacked the city. By this point the Dutch fighters had been effectively wiped out in earlier actions, and only a small number were able to intercept, though they did manage to shoot down 8 bombers. The AA defences of the city accounted for a few more, but the damage was severe. The heavy use of incendiaries overwhelmed the Dutch firefighters, and a huge conflagration took over the centre of the city. While 500 people were killed, the blaze destroyed the best part of 20,000 houses.
The Dutch government were appalled at what they saw as an attack on a purely civilian target with no apparent military targets involved. There were calls for a surrender, to avoid this being repeated in other Dutch cities, but other voices pointed out that so far they had stopped the German attack, and surrendering to terror was an act of betrayal to those men who had already died stopping the Germans. This prevailed, and the Dutch were determined to fight on. There was considerable evacuation of civilians from the major urban centres, but with the Dutch troops already basically in place, this did not have the disruptive effects the Belgian refugees were causing.
Pictures of the fire and its devastating effects were quickly disseminated by the Dutch. This caused outrage in many countries, and particularly in the United States. While there had been attacks on towns and cities before, this was the first major attack purely aimed at civilians, and it marked an escalation that the Allies intended to exploit.
15th May - BEF
Sixth Army had been told that it was of the greatest importance 'to break through the enemy position between Louvain and Namur in order to prevent the French and Belgian forces establishing themselves in this position. They lost no time in trying but the British artillery was already disposed in depth and the concentration which they put down in the late afternoon caused the enemy to draw back; However at 7pm they made the first of a series of attempts to capture Louvain.
Throughout the next, May the 15th, attacks were resumed along the whole British front, the German IV Corps attacking in the 2nd Division's sector near Wavre and their XI Corps the 3rd Division in action at Louvain. Fighting began on the front of the 2nd Division during the morning, where elements of the German 31st Division made a small penetration across the Dyle in the sector held by the 6th Brigade. This was cleared up in the afternoon with a counter-attack.
A renewed attempt to take Louvain from the 3rd Division had started earlier, prefaced by a two-hour bombardment of the area north of the city held by the 9th Brigade and the 7th Guards Brigade. Here a tangle of railway lines and sidings, goods yards, sheds and warehouses made it a difficult area to preserve intact. Units of two German divisions succeeded for a time in pressing back some posts of the 2nd Royal Ulster Rifles, but a counter-attack by the 1st King's Own Scottish Borderers restored the position and drove the enemy out of the railway yards. North of Louvain the 1st Coldstream Guard were heavily attacked and their right company was for a time forced back. But here too a counter-attack in which the heavy armoured cars of the 5th Royal Inniskilling Dragoon Guards drove the enemy out and completely re-established the front. All other assaults were successfully driven off. The German Sixth Army reported to Army Group B that they had not succeeded in penetrating the Dyle defence line at any point.
In the afternoon it was learned with dismay that the French First Army on the right flank had been heavily engaged and that a 5,000-yard breach had been made in their front where there was no river protection. Lord Gort, who had established his Command Post at Lenneck St Quentin, to the west of Brussels, offered to lend General Billotte a brigade of the 48th Division, joined by one of the RTC regiments from 1st Independent Tank Brigade (both currently part of his reserve) to help in restoring the situation, as the alternative would be a withdrawal of 1st Army, which would also force the BEF to fall back so as not to leave their flank exposed.
Such action would have severely compromised the intended actions of 7th Army to seal off the German breakthrough, and the reinforcements were accepted by General Prioux. The existence of the regiment of Cutlass infantry tanks proved to be a complete surprise to the attacking infantry. While only 40 of the 48 tanks in the regiment were able to take part (due to the usual mechanical issues), the German infantry were appalled to find that their anti-tank rounds just bounced off the heavily-armoured infantry tanks. The panic this caused allowed the British force to push the German incursion back quickly, what would later be termed 'tank panic' setting in to a number of the German units. A number of attempts to stop the tanks was made by some batteries of 88mm guns, but while these succeeded in killing a few of the tanks, the advancing regiment covered their advance with smoke and then destroyed the guns with a combination of their own supporting artillery and HE rounds from the tanks, before driving over them and carrying on. By the evening, the breach had been sealed, and the 1st Army position on the Dyle line restored.
(In OTL the tanks weren't available, and Prioux refused the aid of a single brigade, starting the general falling back and retreat from the Dyle. Here he has hopes for the tanks, and also Billotte's actions with 7th Army has made him try and hold for longer)
The Dutch forces forward of the water line fell back as planned, as the German attack was renewed now that they were able to use some of the bridges they needed. The German commander now had a problem; the time the demolitions had allowed the Dutch meant that the bulk of their forces were now manning the Water Line and the rest of the pre-war fortifications. The airborne attack had failed, with heavy losses, so the only way now was an attack against a very strong defensive position. While he had no doubt that this would work, it would take time and he would take heavy losses. The forts, inundations and river lines meant his panzers would not be effective, so it would be down to the infantry and artillery advancing on foot to do things the old-fashioned way.
Back in Berlin, High Command was annoyed the Dutch situation had not already been solved. While one part of the attack - the diversion of attention to the north and away from the Ardennes area - had been successful, the second, the elimination of Holland and the occupation of the northern Rhine crossings, had not. There seemed to be two possibilities. A methodical attack, using the units already in place, or to hold opposite the Dutch defences, keeping them there while they released some divisions for a new attack on the Dyle line, and coming back to deal with the recaltriant Dutch later.
Neither of these was particularly appealing, however a new alternative was suggested by Goering. Already angry at the defeat of his airborne attack, he offered to flatten Rotterdam. Such a devastating attack would surely cause the Dutch to surrender.
Accordingly, on the afternoon of the 15th, a large formation of over 100 He111 bombers attacked the city. By this point the Dutch fighters had been effectively wiped out in earlier actions, and only a small number were able to intercept, though they did manage to shoot down 8 bombers. The AA defences of the city accounted for a few more, but the damage was severe. The heavy use of incendiaries overwhelmed the Dutch firefighters, and a huge conflagration took over the centre of the city. While 500 people were killed, the blaze destroyed the best part of 20,000 houses.
The Dutch government were appalled at what they saw as an attack on a purely civilian target with no apparent military targets involved. There were calls for a surrender, to avoid this being repeated in other Dutch cities, but other voices pointed out that so far they had stopped the German attack, and surrendering to terror was an act of betrayal to those men who had already died stopping the Germans. This prevailed, and the Dutch were determined to fight on. There was considerable evacuation of civilians from the major urban centres, but with the Dutch troops already basically in place, this did not have the disruptive effects the Belgian refugees were causing.
Pictures of the fire and its devastating effects were quickly disseminated by the Dutch. This caused outrage in many countries, and particularly in the United States. While there had been attacks on towns and cities before, this was the first major attack purely aimed at civilians, and it marked an escalation that the Allies intended to exploit.
15th May - BEF
Sixth Army had been told that it was of the greatest importance 'to break through the enemy position between Louvain and Namur in order to prevent the French and Belgian forces establishing themselves in this position. They lost no time in trying but the British artillery was already disposed in depth and the concentration which they put down in the late afternoon caused the enemy to draw back; However at 7pm they made the first of a series of attempts to capture Louvain.
Throughout the next, May the 15th, attacks were resumed along the whole British front, the German IV Corps attacking in the 2nd Division's sector near Wavre and their XI Corps the 3rd Division in action at Louvain. Fighting began on the front of the 2nd Division during the morning, where elements of the German 31st Division made a small penetration across the Dyle in the sector held by the 6th Brigade. This was cleared up in the afternoon with a counter-attack.
A renewed attempt to take Louvain from the 3rd Division had started earlier, prefaced by a two-hour bombardment of the area north of the city held by the 9th Brigade and the 7th Guards Brigade. Here a tangle of railway lines and sidings, goods yards, sheds and warehouses made it a difficult area to preserve intact. Units of two German divisions succeeded for a time in pressing back some posts of the 2nd Royal Ulster Rifles, but a counter-attack by the 1st King's Own Scottish Borderers restored the position and drove the enemy out of the railway yards. North of Louvain the 1st Coldstream Guard were heavily attacked and their right company was for a time forced back. But here too a counter-attack in which the heavy armoured cars of the 5th Royal Inniskilling Dragoon Guards drove the enemy out and completely re-established the front. All other assaults were successfully driven off. The German Sixth Army reported to Army Group B that they had not succeeded in penetrating the Dyle defence line at any point.
In the afternoon it was learned with dismay that the French First Army on the right flank had been heavily engaged and that a 5,000-yard breach had been made in their front where there was no river protection. Lord Gort, who had established his Command Post at Lenneck St Quentin, to the west of Brussels, offered to lend General Billotte a brigade of the 48th Division, joined by one of the RTC regiments from 1st Independent Tank Brigade (both currently part of his reserve) to help in restoring the situation, as the alternative would be a withdrawal of 1st Army, which would also force the BEF to fall back so as not to leave their flank exposed.
Such action would have severely compromised the intended actions of 7th Army to seal off the German breakthrough, and the reinforcements were accepted by General Prioux. The existence of the regiment of Cutlass infantry tanks proved to be a complete surprise to the attacking infantry. While only 40 of the 48 tanks in the regiment were able to take part (due to the usual mechanical issues), the German infantry were appalled to find that their anti-tank rounds just bounced off the heavily-armoured infantry tanks. The panic this caused allowed the British force to push the German incursion back quickly, what would later be termed 'tank panic' setting in to a number of the German units. A number of attempts to stop the tanks was made by some batteries of 88mm guns, but while these succeeded in killing a few of the tanks, the advancing regiment covered their advance with smoke and then destroyed the guns with a combination of their own supporting artillery and HE rounds from the tanks, before driving over them and carrying on. By the evening, the breach had been sealed, and the 1st Army position on the Dyle line restored.
(In OTL the tanks weren't available, and Prioux refused the aid of a single brigade, starting the general falling back and retreat from the Dyle. Here he has hopes for the tanks, and also Billotte's actions with 7th Army has made him try and hold for longer)
Not yet, but the road is starting to get littered with potholes
Well a more extensive evacuation before surrendering is rather possible aswell by the dutch is something to consider over a longer period, hell they can evacuate most of their army and artillery , the entire navy aswell . They could also evacuate war making factories and what remains of their airforce or atleast the pilots. And the army could be sent to defend the dutch east indies wich could be massive change compared to otl.Hopefully they take the jews aswell to avoid otl but i dont know if the drivers for it are there altough i imagine alot will try to evacuate and will be but not all and as a policy thats abit impossible without hindsight. Apparently when fully mobilised the dutch were supposed to have 4 corps . A rather extensive evacuation is possible cause there are great harbors available for it and the dutch had like the 3rd or 4th biggest merchant fleet in the world behind britain and usa being bigger for sure. And the brits can lend destroyers and light cruiser and the dutch own navy can do the same .
I think for example the 1000 old 75mm-s the americans basicly gave to the brits could be given to them and sent to the dutch east indies maybe where they could do some good.
And i imagine they would order stuff from america with their own money and their colonies income aswell to rearm alot more extensivly compared to otl wich might mean abit faster american rearmament thanks to actual dutch orders in 40/41 and they can absorb lend lease aswell since they could be a army level formation for the allies . And i imagine they might send a more extensive airforce to dutch east indies aswell but probably with american gear again and they might be interested in american tanks since the british will be to busy for them to be honest.
In otl the dutch apparently had 5 free dutch squadrons and a brigade at d-day with the canadian army with plans when liberated to recruit up to 200000 if needed .
Edit: I think they would send alot of forces to fight the japanese but they could deploy atleast a corp maybe with a armored divison or two with american tanks for d-day?Ànd thats not mentioning the manpower the evacuation could provide for the british industry. Hell they can pay brits for stuff aswell is another point to rearm their forces?
I think for example the 1000 old 75mm-s the americans basicly gave to the brits could be given to them and sent to the dutch east indies maybe where they could do some good.
And i imagine they would order stuff from america with their own money and their colonies income aswell to rearm alot more extensivly compared to otl wich might mean abit faster american rearmament thanks to actual dutch orders in 40/41 and they can absorb lend lease aswell since they could be a army level formation for the allies . And i imagine they might send a more extensive airforce to dutch east indies aswell but probably with american gear again and they might be interested in american tanks since the british will be to busy for them to be honest.
In otl the dutch apparently had 5 free dutch squadrons and a brigade at d-day with the canadian army with plans when liberated to recruit up to 200000 if needed .
Edit: I think they would send alot of forces to fight the japanese but they could deploy atleast a corp maybe with a armored divison or two with american tanks for d-day?Ànd thats not mentioning the manpower the evacuation could provide for the british industry. Hell they can pay brits for stuff aswell is another point to rearm their forces?
Last edited:
"The issue of the kit the soldiers would need was yet another headache. Most of it was standard for an infantry battalion, which at least helped in that they knew what they needed. They already knew they would be short of Bren guns; with the carriers, the additional weight of a Bren and its ammo wasn't as big a problem as it was for the infantry moving on foot, so they had decided to go with a squad using two Bren guns for increased firepower. However Bren guns were in short supply, so for the time being they would be limited to one, until the rest of the infantry formations had been issued with theirs. Some of the more enterprising sergeants had been talking to the Quartermasters about exactly what ex-WW1 kit they had hidden away at the back of the warehouse."
When I saw this, I started thinking about all the K-guns the RAF had in storage. Would it be possible that the scarf-ring with an K-gun from the old Hinds(ala SAS Jeeps) could be mounted on the carriers observer position. This would give the carries extra firepower and even a limited AA-capability. As you already said, weight is not an issue.
When I saw this, I started thinking about all the K-guns the RAF had in storage. Would it be possible that the scarf-ring with an K-gun from the old Hinds(ala SAS Jeeps) could be mounted on the carriers observer position. This would give the carries extra firepower and even a limited AA-capability. As you already said, weight is not an issue.
There are lots of all sorts of old machine guns that have 'somehow' ended up in the APC's. Lewis guns, K-guns, anything that's light and not too big.
All off the books, of course
Would just like to express my appreciation for the K-Gun. It's like someone looked at a Lewis Gun and went "right: How can we get this into WW2?"
(Ignore the DP-26.)
The Vickers K, or VGO, was actually based on the Vickers-Berthier that was in competition with the Bren for the role of British Light Machine Gun (It was actually winning the earlier trials. The V-B was adopted by the Indian Army instead of the Bren. So the Vickers K could probably fulfill the role of light machine gun just fine, though it would probably be better if it were slowed down. And a belt or magazine feed would be appreciated. Still, it is an attractive option if you can get a hold of them. Especially since the RAF had decided to replace the Vickers K with the Browning wherever possible (They found the job of switching drums took too long).
Driftless
Donor
How short? Also, weren't most Dutch munitions unique to them, making replacements hard to come by?