The Forge of Weyland

The Valentine has been butterflied by the A11 Cutlas - better armour, can carry a bigger gun, 5 man crew, and faster. Also the design teams that were building it have been busy on other work, so no engineers available anyway.
There are a number of tank development paths possible, they are looking at testing and evaluating things to decide which one Vickers will propose
 
i guess a infantry tank with 25 pounder seems like a thing to do for its role .
And a cromwell equilevant with either a 77/81 mm gun ?

There hasnt been enough experience for a universal tank so a infantry tank and a cruiser tank still are thing here.

Maybe also go with a merlin conversion for future tank engines ? You would have to build a factory for it tough but since its in the future it should be fine.
 
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I'm guessing the Churchill is a non-starter - too slow for TTL's manoeuvre warfare.
We'll have to see, not all tank use is fast moving, especially when with infantry. And the ability to drive just about anywhere is useful.
There are actually a number of possible tank options, these are just early ideas and saying 'we need to test this idea'. What they wont be doing - at least in the next generation - is moving to a universal tank as such, it's too early.
 
Will the A11 Cutlass be built in numbers similar to the OTL Valentine?
Lighter Tanks could be named, Hanger, Dirk and Skean-Dhu. or alternatively Rapier if you want to stick to swords only.
 
Will the A11 Cutlass be built in numbers similar to the OTL Valentine?
Lighter Tanks could be named, Hanger, Dirk and Skean-Dhu. or alternatively Rapier if you want to stick to swords only.
Claymore available also. Glaive and Halberd are bladed rather than pointed weapons like spears

Maybe go for Battleaxe for the Churchill equivalent. Or Mace, Morning Star etc. The quintessential blunt instruments.
 
Will the A11 Cutlass be built in numbers similar to the OTL Valentine?
Lighter Tanks could be named, Hanger, Dirk and Skean-Dhu. or alternatively Rapier if you want to stick to swords only.
They'll certainly spam out either the A10 or A11, which one they want most will probably depend on actual fighting experience
 
You can keep building the current tanks for abit.

I still think a infantry tank with a 25 pounder seems logical considering that they already have a 18 pounder if a converted one already here ? No idea how big such a tank should be for that gun ? No idea how big it would be.

And then there is the cruiser , i think a 25-30 ton cromwell equilevant with abit better gun than in otl . Probably a 77mm gun based on a 3 inch gun ?
 
quick question - understand the 6/18 is a 'necked out' naval 6pdr (as used in the WW1 tank ?) but is that the original one they used (i.e. long barrel) or the shortened one that they adapted and used going forward (and ended up in various pillboxes and the armoured train in ww2)
 
Probably short barrel. The Royal Tank Corps had a rule that the barrel of the gun couldn't extend beyond the tracks of the tank. This was because on the Mark I tanks in 1916 the long 6 Pounders had a habit of digging into the ground, hence why they were shortened on later tanks.
 
Shorter barrel (it was mentioned in the story). They don't need high MV, its seen as an HE/Smoke lobber, and lower mv usually means shorter recoil. The AT round basically works as its big and heavy (like the OTL 25pdr one), but its seen as an 'oh shit!' round rather that one for normal use. That might change, of course
 
Ironically the Army have in place a command and control system for fast response to the call - for the artillery.
No-one has thought to use a modified version for air support, and the exercises didn't show up the need as everything was pre-planned. It's not going to be until actual combat the lack is shown up glaringly.

Which is pretty much why an IL 2 type is useless for the British, and a dive bomber sub optimal ( it exists because of the weakness of the Soviet artillery arm and the areas involved. Its also not very effective. )

If the British can locate something ( see it, flash/sound range it, look at a map and identify where it is) they can engage it with artillery within 3-4 minutes. A Close Air Support aircraft has to better that to be worth the effort - better that includes the fact that a low level aircraft will be in the same airspace as artillery rounds and one or other has to go.

If you have a cab rank of aircraft standing off burning fuel waiting to be intercepted you can contact which can engage faster than organic weapons great . But that means using VHF radios in ways you don't know they can be used yet. Also helps if they have a useful weapons load.

And before someone says Luftwaffe what they were doing was being told the direction of the attack is from A-B on front X-Y bomb everything else and using the german phone network to speak between Luftflotte and Army HQ with the occasional light aircraft landing next to a command vehicle. As soon as they move out of friendly ground comms - Russia this fall apart what they are not doing is directing a Stuka to bomb a tank on the fly.

As soon as you start talking about army cooperation you are talking about really 5 missions.

Air Superiority - without which your bombers will get intercepted and the slow now pathetically slow and vulnerable Battles slaughtered whenever they run into German Fighters - as the AdA aircraft were in 1940 ( and Luftwaffe for that matter)

Air denial - without which Luftwaffe bombers and recon aircraft have free reign and bomb your armoured spearheads with impunity - as the British did, well everywhere.

In its pomp in 1944/5 2 TAF and the 9th were flying 80% of their missions as counterair.

CAS - where you have deal with the fact that a squadron of light bombers with a few small bombs in the afternoon is less effective than a regiment off 25lb in 4 minutes. Now rocket firing or napalm dropping would be something else but these are much more powerful weapons.

Interdiction - which is further back. At this point hmm. Depends on the flak defences. The reason for dive bombing to ensure accuracy in the face of medium flak. A level bomber is just as accurate as a dive bomber provided it can identify the target and fly straight and level and constant speed for about 4-5 minutes. Unfortunately it takes 2-3 minutes for medium flak to get a solution on the attacker and at least scare the crew into dodging or releasing early - this is the German lesson from Spain. And of each attacker has to do its own bomb sight solution or you dropping on the lead bombardier so by definition not accurate. A dive bomber is changing the height solution too fast for medium AA to track and is aiming the plane and releasing at low level. Its problem is that light flak can hit it at least at the bottom of the dive - and sometimes MG fire. For that target this may not matter but over time the damage to dive bombers mean the squadrons rapidly become ineffective - which is why they get sent to places where there is No Flak at all or used by navies where the target is important.

A low level light bomber has the worst of all. Its always vulnerable to light AA if it exists, and is basically inaccurate its slow, not agile and toast if it runs into fighters as the AdA and the Red Air Force would demonstrate time and again.

If the target is defended by medium Flak the dive bomber is a good idea but that's strategic bridges, factories, towns, transport routes etc. If its defended by light flak the level bomber is as accurate as you need and invulnerable. If its maneuvering troops without Flak set up low level bombers fine, also ievel bombers and dive bombers the issue then is the bomb load - which is more for the level bomber usually.

If the enemy actually has fighters i.e. they know where to put them almost as if they are flying standing patrols over their armoured spearhead you need escorts for everything or you get shot down.

And recon which is fine if there are no fighters and part of recon is the debrief after any other mission. So to find the armoured spearhead the recon aircraft has to survive the defending fighters.

The RAF - who have more experience of this than anyone else BTW knows this and has tried it with the armoured ground attacker, and rejected the notion. Their view was level bomber fine, handy and there is not that much medium Flak to go around otherwise the best option is the fighter bomber, Which is why BTW the DAF and Co operation command in NI came up with basically the same solution on basically the same timetable independent of each other, implementation being dependent on available aircraft.

a) you need fighters to do everything else so as many as possible and there are vast economies of scale in big production runs
b) the sort of payload a Battle will deliver is about the same as fighter bomber will deliver but the fighter is moving 50% faster and is more agile so its in the engagement envelope for a lot less time and less likely to get hit at all. But probably wont do much damage.
c) a recon AOP aircraft which was the Lysander but thats really more than you need.

Also need to remember that the pre war the scenario is the war starts with massed attack on civilian targets with chemical weapons. Which is potentially decisive. There is no point in being able to dive bomb panzers if the Heinkels are bombing London with mustard gas.
 
I agree with you that close-support isn't the panacea it seems at first. The EAF did use it (they had two squadrons assigned), and its useful, but I suspect overrated.
Its good for those targets a bit too far for your Divisional Artillery, and things like concentrations, dumps, bridges. Its also not a cheap solution - more/better artillery is, which is why the British Army of 44/5 was so artillery-heavy.
The bonus of CAS (which they probably don't realise yet) is that it causes disruption, makes the enemy spread out and take cover, and buys you time. It also means fighters and AA have to be diverted to stop the complaints about it.
With the new mobile SP guns, the Armoured Division may well end up not getting much of it, they are far less vulnerable to it anyway.
 
a) you need fighters to do everything else so as many as possible and there are vast economies of scale in big production runs
b) the sort of payload a Battle will deliver is about the same as fighter bomber will deliver but the fighter is moving 50% faster and is more agile so its in the engagement envelope for a lot less time and less likely to get hit at all. But probably wont do much damage.
The problem is that until 1941 the RAF doesn't have spare fighter aircraft to use as fighter bombers, if you're going to do close air support it's the otherwise unwanted Battle or nothing.
 
Which is pretty much why an IL 2 type is useless for the British, and a dive bomber sub optimal ( it exists because of the weakness of the Soviet artillery arm and the areas involved. Its also not very effective. )

If the British can locate something ( see it, flash/sound range it, look at a map and identify where it is) they can engage it with artillery within 3-4 minutes. A Close Air Support aircraft has to better that to be worth the effort - better that includes the fact that a low level aircraft will be in the same airspace as artillery rounds and one or other has to go.

If you have a cab rank of aircraft standing off burning fuel waiting to be intercepted you can contact which can engage faster than organic weapons great . But that means using VHF radios in ways you don't know they can be used yet. Also helps if they have a useful weapons load.

And before someone says Luftwaffe what they were doing was being told the direction of the attack is from A-B on front X-Y bomb everything else and using the german phone network to speak between Luftflotte and Army HQ with the occasional light aircraft landing next to a command vehicle. As soon as they move out of friendly ground comms - Russia this fall apart what they are not doing is directing a Stuka to bomb a tank on the fly.

As soon as you start talking about army cooperation you are talking about really 5 missions.

Air Superiority - without which your bombers will get intercepted and the slow now pathetically slow and vulnerable Battles slaughtered whenever they run into German Fighters - as the AdA aircraft were in 1940 ( and Luftwaffe for that matter)

Air denial - without which Luftwaffe bombers and recon aircraft have free reign and bomb your armoured spearheads with impunity - as the British did, well everywhere.

In its pomp in 1944/5 2 TAF and the 9th were flying 80% of their missions as counterair.

CAS - where you have deal with the fact that a squadron of light bombers with a few small bombs in the afternoon is less effective than a regiment off 25lb in 4 minutes. Now rocket firing or napalm dropping would be something else but these are much more powerful weapons.

Interdiction - which is further back. At this point hmm. Depends on the flak defences. The reason for dive bombing to ensure accuracy in the face of medium flak. A level bomber is just as accurate as a dive bomber provided it can identify the target and fly straight and level and constant speed for about 4-5 minutes. Unfortunately it takes 2-3 minutes for medium flak to get a solution on the attacker and at least scare the crew into dodging or releasing early - this is the German lesson from Spain. And of each attacker has to do its own bomb sight solution or you dropping on the lead bombardier so by definition not accurate. A dive bomber is changing the height solution too fast for medium AA to track and is aiming the plane and releasing at low level. Its problem is that light flak can hit it at least at the bottom of the dive - and sometimes MG fire. For that target this may not matter but over time the damage to dive bombers mean the squadrons rapidly become ineffective - which is why they get sent to places where there is No Flak at all or used by navies where the target is important.

A low level light bomber has the worst of all. Its always vulnerable to light AA if it exists, and is basically inaccurate its slow, not agile and toast if it runs into fighters as the AdA and the Red Air Force would demonstrate time and again.

If the target is defended by medium Flak the dive bomber is a good idea but that's strategic bridges, factories, towns, transport routes etc. If its defended by light flak the level bomber is as accurate as you need and invulnerable. If its maneuvering troops without Flak set up low level bombers fine, also ievel bombers and dive bombers the issue then is the bomb load - which is more for the level bomber usually.

If the enemy actually has fighters i.e. they know where to put them almost as if they are flying standing patrols over their armoured spearhead you need escorts for everything or you get shot down.

And recon which is fine if there are no fighters and part of recon is the debrief after any other mission. So to find the armoured spearhead the recon aircraft has to survive the defending fighters.

The RAF - who have more experience of this than anyone else BTW knows this and has tried it with the armoured ground attacker, and rejected the notion. Their view was level bomber fine, handy and there is not that much medium Flak to go around otherwise the best option is the fighter bomber, Which is why BTW the DAF and Co operation command in NI came up with basically the same solution on basically the same timetable independent of each other, implementation being dependent on available aircraft.

a) you need fighters to do everything else so as many as possible and there are vast economies of scale in big production runs
b) the sort of payload a Battle will deliver is about the same as fighter bomber will deliver but the fighter is moving 50% faster and is more agile so its in the engagement envelope for a lot less time and less likely to get hit at all. But probably wont do much damage.
c) a recon AOP aircraft which was the Lysander but thats really more than you need.

Also need to remember that the pre war the scenario is the war starts with massed attack on civilian targets with chemical weapons. Which is potentially decisive. There is no point in being able to dive bomb panzers if the Heinkels are bombing London with mustard gas.
Gannt great analysis especially for the congested European theatre but for the desert (mobile arms massively out pace artillery but on the flip side are incredibly easy to identify from the air) is CAS actually abetter solution?
 
I think part of the issue is exactly what do you consider close?
Your organic artillery probably reaches around 10,000 yards. Some of that is taken up by having to be behind the lines yourself, so the reach or artillery in practice is probably more like3 miles or so.
The advantage of artillery is fast response (especially the British), accuracy when controlled, and weight of fire over time.
CAS can delivery a lot or ordnance very quickly (and more accurately than rockets), with not great accuracy (due to target identification) and takes a while to turn up.
CAS wins on being able to hit things in that 3-10 miles from FEBA, that you cant touch unless you have heavy artillery in range, can be delivered where you need it (the guns might not be there), and has a distinct effect on morale. Some of the availability issue is reduced if you have SP guns, but by no means all. CAS can also hit that enemy artillery which is out of range, command centres, bridges, and so on.

Ideally Artillery and CAS complement each other. Yes, a Battle isn't ideal (the upgrades from Fairey will help, this wont be your OTL Battle), but the HurriBomber isn't available. There's a lot they haven't worked out yet, and there will be a lot of mistakes. But it's better than nothing, and hopefully can avoid those medium level attacks that were so costly (the armour and self-sealing tanks would help even there). A faster Battle is also a reasonable recon platform if there's nothing else around. If they are talking to the pilots, the pilot can give them an immediate warning on something before he heads home.
 
i agree with Gantt's analysis but with one caveat - the interdiction role, the RAF argue (i have a copy of the ops manual) that anything within artillery range should be engaged by that and their role starts where artillery stops. the problem was in 1940 that RAF decided that definition of interdiction was stretched beyond the bounds of credulity - bombing rail junctions in Germany when the bulk of the blitzkrieg spearheads was at the channel for example.

Hurribomber or even a Miles M20 (if you cant spare hurricane) is better than battle even a pimped up one although in my AH im writing the Whirwind is a useful fast fighter bomber

EDIT Astro posted whilst i was typing - its not the aircraft its how its used and the pimped battle ......... or even the F4/34 that became the fulmar which is more plausible if the quasi strategic role removed - is better than nothing

EDIT there is also the Henley
henley.png

source Hawker Henley target tug and dive-bomber. (dingeraviation.net)
 
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A cab rank of fighter bombers is all very well but more artillery and an Auster will give a faster response with appropriate signals and is cheaper. Not to mention not going home when it gets dark, or wet, or to refuel or rearm or it is tea time. No one wants to announce where they are by firing on an army Auster.
 
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