The Forge of Weyland

'Allo 'Allo was a superb comedy, but its also one of those shows you couldn't produce today due to the howling that would ensue on social media, but I totally recommend watching as its VERY funny. The most genius part though was the Policeman, who was actually a British spy, and when he speaks he says things like "Good moaning, I was just pissing by..." and so on, getting words wrong and saying stuff that's funny as all hell, much to the exhasperation of the folks he's talking to.

But you then realise that he's talking French, to the French people, just badly :D And its pure genius.
 
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Good moaning, I was pissing by your coffee, when I hoard two shats feared. You have in your hind a smirking goon, you are cluely the guilty potty.
 
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[SNIP]​

How about some more of these a little earlier?
Any minefield is likely to be in front of dug in defenders so I'm not sure how useful vehicles like that would be. Something along the lines of an engineering tank with mine ploughs or regular tanks modified to carry detachable mine ploughs would seem more appropriate.
 
Any minefield is likely to be in front of dug in defenders so I'm not sure how useful vehicles like that would be. Something along the lines of an engineering tank with mine ploughs or regular tanks modified to carry detachable mine ploughs would seem more appropriate.
More on mines in a little while.
 
So the big unanswered question about the Anglo-French manouvers is who won? Who thinks they've won? Who are the losers blaming for their defeat?

I wonder if any of the butterflies flown their way over to Germany yet? If so what are the effects if any. Also for our Continetal Cousins are any of the butterflies having any effects in the US of A?
 
The original idea of the Independent Armoured Brigade was pre-war. The name is probably misleading; it really should have been called the Independent Support Armoured Brigade. The idea was that it wouldn't operate as an Independent unit (despite the name!) but would be attached to an infantry formation to give it a temporary stiffening (remember the whole concept of the infantry tank).
There are obvious problems with this (and TTL will be showing a few of them). The full Armoured Division is clearly better, and if necessary can break into two Brigades (in 1944 they actually fixed it, 4 battle groups per division that could be ad hoc combined, but they aren't getting that yet!).
There is actually one thing driving them as a temporary arrangement TTL - despite the lack of tanks, they are still likely to be able to form them faster than Divisions. Which was sort of what they had in 1940, it wasn't that they didn't want the Division, just that it took a lot longer than they expected to get it ready.

Remember, something sorta-ready now tends to be more useful than the perfect solution 6 months too late.
This is the Army Tank Brigade of 39 - with the intention in 1939, which will change given the rate of rearmament and production, being to give each ID a brigade of three I tanks battalions and its clear through the war that the British would break up armoured divisions to do this at Alamein, Husky etc. But OTL they don't have enough tanks or the right type to equip them in 1939.

What happens in the western desert is its easier to ship kit than manpower from Britain so they get a lot of tanks of various kinds unsuitable for I tank work. ( and desert with the local nuttiness of 41 - losing Gazala.) So you get a pre war organisation and a disproportionate number of Amd Div nominally available. In fact its really two 7th and 10th with 1st later added. The amd divs shipped out from Britain in 41/42 including 1st, fight as binary divs 1 amd and 1 motor bde ( plus arty engineers etc.) with the 1st amds second amd bde being stripped out before it goes into action. Its pretty clear around march 39 the army wants the Mobile division split into two but events take over and this does not happen - also the Panzers who appear just as tank heavy do OK in Poland. But given the availability of enough kit in 39 the intention would be to put suitable tanks into the ID.

The question being what is the suitable tank for use with the infantry. OTL its clearly not a MkVI or an early model cruiser but give them the option of a very well protected for 1939 mobile tank well you have a 1939 version of the Sherman or T34 or Valentine which is a Light Infantry tank. They will hoover them up.

That gives the standard ID as a fully motorised ( with corps transport assets for the Infantry and there are enough to motorise all of them at the same time) division with a tank Bn per inf BDE. When assembled this is an incredibly powerful force for the time. ( the british did briefly use a 2 Inf Bde 1 Tank Bde Mixed div but dropped it quickly).

So what does the armoured division do that this Inf Div cannot do. The Panzer divisions job is to encircle the enemy deeply and force them to attack you until the leg infantry can catch up so balanced all arms formation very fast. The doctrine for fighting the war pre dates panzer divisions and tanks so its all about mobility. It is not to break in to an enemy position of any strength, it really cant do that but it can go around them and smash any weaker formation as happens to the 2 DCR these are powerful fight hard but start scattered because the speed of the advance, contrast that with the 10 Pz Div at Stonne, which meets a closed up DCR. Or Hainault. You can therefore encircle the enemy and pocket them. Its the relative weakness and immobility of the German ID that means the Panzer Divs are forced into a reactive role to counter actually quite weak enemy armoured attacks.

A British ID has the same operational mobility and against equally weak forces will do just the same and basically as fast. Their perception though is that will be a rarity. ( and in fact it is in WW2) and you will have to attack frontally strong units.

The Mobile/Armoured division in British service is functionally different. Its the Corps de Chasse Functionally it has to pursue the already defeated enemy as far and as fast as possible. which is why light armoured and fast cruisers are looked for.

Given a reasonably well protected tank the priority unless you change the whole of British doctrine and experience of WW1 will be the ID with a smaller element as the reserve pursuit force.

If 1st Amd of any composition is present it has the same problem as 1 and 2 DCR. It has to disperse to avoid air attack and without advanced warning will be caught dispersed, or noticed as it advances and unlike a tank bn and bombed giving the germans time to react as happened to the French cavalry Corps elements on 22 May.

The real problem in 1940 is Bilotte gives no orders to the BEf at least for 8 days ( 11 - 19 May) during which time he has had two armies defeated in detail and within 3 days of the German attack starting Reynaud says we are beaten please send the RAF cos thats going to work.
 
So the big unanswered question about the Anglo-French manouvers is who won? Who thinks they've won? Who are the losers blaming for their defeat?

I wonder if any of the butterflies flown their way over to Germany yet? If so what are the effects if any. Also for our Continetal Cousins are any of the butterflies having any effects in the US of A?
It's a very mixed bag. Both sides thought they did well. Both noted things they needed to fix, some of which wouldn't be for various reasons, and both quietly ignored certain things that went wrong. Some fixes aren't going to work either.
It was useful, but by no means perfect. They really should have been doing these 3 years ago...

Yes, there are German butterflies. But Germany is rather more constrained as to its reactions, due to the economy basically being maxed out on war production. There is no spare capacity, while both Britain and France have some, ad can also buy from the USA (Germany has no Foreign currency reserves)
 
Basically the Armoured Division has two main uses.
To outflank or exploit an infantry defence. If it cant find one, but they can find a weak point, to hit that with their infantry tanks and infantry, make a hole for the cruisers to stream through. The infantry tanks and infantry hold the breach open for them. Not much different from the OTL exercises, except the growing number of AT guns mean you need something tough to crack that nut.
This is why their infantry tanks need to be faster than a walking pace. They can live with slightly less armour, they aren't supposed to be attacking into a strong defence.
The other main role is mobile defence. As the enemy can do what they plan to do, a way of counterattacking an enemy armoured thrust is needed, and only the Armoured division is fast and strong enough to do this quickly. They need to be able to fight tanks, which is why they are moving to a heavy cruiser design, and as an enemy will have its own infantry and guns following, they need their own artillery to be mobile.

Of course it can do other things, but these are seen as its main roles, and its what its constructed for. These roles, coming out of the 35-38 exercises, have defined a somewhat different tank design.

The British always liked lots of tanks, and adding a Brigade to an Infantry Division is a good way of making it a lot stronger. Basically an early mechanised Division, they need Infantry tanks for this. Even the British cant afford 1 Armoured Brigade per division, so they will be attached as needed,
 
Air attack. Well, that's why they want those SP AA guns...
But an armoured formation in 1940 isn't that vulnerable to air attack, as long as the soft-skinned vehicles are kept hidden, the armoured ones are rather hard to hurt. They are certainly in a much better place than an infantry division.
 

Errolwi

Monthly Donor
( the british did briefly use a 2 Inf Bde 1 Tank Bde Mixed div but dropped it quickly).
The 2nd NZ Division was like this throughout the Italian campaign (they decided they couldn't trust British armoured support allocated to them for some reason). Battalions(/Regiments/Squadrons) were assigned to Brigade HQs as required.

Bonus discussion in an Official History of issues of command, with no issues of unit tradition.
 
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And of course 'Allo 'Allo was riffing off the earlier, serious Secret Army set in Brussels. Which I didn't realise till I moved to the UK and saw the latter on day time TV in between jobs.

I was at a wedding in 2019 in Surrey, where the bride was now living in Brussels. Anyway, we stayed in the pub-hotel next to the church and when we came down to breakfast the day after the wedding, were amused to be greeted by the landlady's "good moaning". Which she then proceeded to repeat for all other diners whilst we were there eating. I have often wondered when this amusing bit became her regular routine.
 
18th April 1939
18th April 1939, London.

There is a meeting between the management of Vickers and the Government to look at establishing new sources of military supplies in Canada. Vickers has been investigating these for some time, as Canada had been interested in obtaining tanks, which the commitments in Britain had left in short supply. Vickers had been originally negotiating on a deal to build one or more of the current models in Canada, but with the ongoing developments this was felt to be too minimal a solution.

The Canadian government was unwilling to commit to building what they saw as war industries, or spend money on developing them, but were prepared to facilitate new armament works as long as Vickers paid for them. For their part, Vickers was happy to do this as long as they were recompensed by the Government.

Canada was seen as the best source of equipment in the Empire and Dominions; it had a modern technical base, ample resources and was close to the USA where parts and machinery could be purchased. It was decided to fund two new sites; the first would be in partnership with the Montreal Locomotive Works to build tanks and component parts. Secondly they wanted to build a new factory complex to build tanks, guns and other specialised vehicles close to Toronto, conveniently close to the steel mills at Hamilton.

While officially the Canadian government were not part of the arrangement, they would make every effort to help these deals along. Vickers had looked at a number of locations, and all they needed was official permission - which was swiftly granted - to break ground. They needed to buy in tools and train the workforce as well as just build the factory, but expected the first output from the new works in the summer of 1940.

It was expected to get vehicles from Montreal sooner than this, the main detail to be resolved was which tank to build. The Canadian government had indicated it would be interested in purchasing the A10 Sabre, and the A12 Matilda II was the other possibility. There had been discussions as to whether the tank would be completely welded, as at Vickers, or use cast sections. The Canadian plants were familiar with casting, and there was a shortage of armour plate in the country, so one option was to build the A10 with cast hull sections and turret. Vickers had investigated this when they first designed the tank, before deciding welding was the better way to go, so the drawings wouldn't have to be done from scratch, just updated and possibly modified for Canadian methods.. The Matilda II of course already cast, but there were concerns as to the time it needed to produce them, given Vulcan's problems.

In addition to tanks, Vickers also wanted to build guns and engines. The new Toronto plant would build all three - land was plentiful, and there was no risk of enemy attack, so the plant would be laid out for maximum efficiency. Being a port on the Great Lakes, there would be no huge problem shipping raw materials and finished weapons out. They were looking at a plant to build the Kiwi engine, 1,000 units a year, and also factory space to build guns, starting with the 2pdr and HV3pdr guns. One possibility was an American diesel engine, built under license in Canada by the subsidiary of a large US manufacturer, but this needed further investigation.

Vickers were also looking at the possibility or sourcing some components from the USA. While convenient, there were serious issues as to the availability of US dollars, and they didn't expect to get permission short of a War. Another possibility worth looking into was a collaboration with a company like General Motors in Canada, for building engines and vehicles.



27th April 1939

In order to meet the forthcoming needs of the armed forces, in particular the Army, a limited form of conscription was authorised in Britain. Leslie Hore-Belisha, the Secretary of State for War, persuaded the Cabinet to introduce a limited form of conscription. Only single men in the age group 20-22 years old were liable, and in order to distinguish them from the Regular and territorial amy they would be called 'militiamen'. The intention was for the first intake to undergo six months of basic training before being discharged into the active reserve. They would then be recalled for short training periods and attend an annual camp. Parliament would pass the enabling Military Training act on the 26th May.

28th April 1939

Adolf Hitler addresses the Reichstag, denouncing both the 10-year non-aggression pact with Poland and the Anglo-German Naval Agreement of 1935. He calls the Anglo0Polish Agreement an alliance directed exclusively against Germany, and again demands the return of Danzig to Germany. The Royal Navy starts preparations for increasing the size of its anti-submarine force, now that they are no longer confined by the Agreement. Although there are still hopes that War can be averted, to most in office this is looking less and less likely, and war planning proceeds as far as economic and financial resources allow.

3rd May 1939, War Office, London

General Martel had been involved with mine-clearing devices and techniques in WW1, so was the obvious person to consult about modernising the techniques for modern use. The methods of the time had basically been a tank-mounted mine roller, and this was seen as the obvious starting point, as they had proven to be fairly successful.

Interest had waned after the Great War, as it had been considered that any minefields encountered would be too large for easy clearance under fire. However exercises and tests had shown that there was a use for tactical minefields, and being able to clear these would speed things up - and reduce losses - considerably. Martel, while feeling his earlier considerations had been valued, accepted that things were changing, and that a group should be set up to test and refine the old methods with a modern tank. It would also test current proposed British mines - while some experimental and test mines had been used over the years, there was no good modern mine in mass production. The Army wanted a anti-infantry and anti-tank mine, if only one was possible then the anti-tank version. Given that they were expecting to be defending initial German attacks, mines seemed very useful, and enterprising infantry units had been fairly successful with dummy ones against the RTC exercises. And intelligence showed the Germans themselves were keen on the use of mines, so ways of neutralising them would be helpful when they themselves attacked.

He wouldn't be taking part in the evaluations himself - he had recently over the 50th (Northumbrian) Division, and would be busy preparing them, and also the second line 'daughter' unit the 23rd (Northumbrian) division. He particularly wanted to ensure they knew how to work with and against tanks. While spare tanks were very thin on the ground, he was sure some of his old contacts could arrange for something suitable to occur. He did suggest to his visitors that once they had got to the stage of needing some infantry to help them test things out, he'd be happy to have his Division supply some men.
 
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