The Forge of Weyland

As an example, in May 1940 7th Panzer Division had
34 PzI, 68 Pz II, 91 Pz 38(t), 24 Pz IV with 2 Regiments of Infantry.
Granted, 7th Panzer was pretty light (compared to some other Panzer divisions), but in a head-to-head with a British Armoured Brigade, its way deficient in medium tanks.
It does have 88mm's in the AA regiment, but an Armoured Brigade will have SP guns and possible close support tanks with them.
 
That sounds like the arras counterattack will be done with the armored divison and maybe a infantry divison to help as the most likely scenario without changing much from otl untill then seems the most likely scenario and from there butteflys will flap their wings? Brits might actually break through to the south and they evacuate south through that corridor ? The fighting will be horrible but you would rescue the best two of the french armies and the BEF with maybe having no belgian surrender since the belgian army situation isnt hopeless if kicked out of belgium. The goal was for the french and brits to break through the sickle cut and evacuate to the south i think but they were rather disorganized at the times they needed to do this when there was option for it.

And if not a breakthrough then the two panzer divisons and the ss divison around arras are getting absoloutly murdered wich might trigger even more caution from germans is another option wich might get enough time for the french to sort themselves out ? Maybe have the 2nd divison be like the otl 1st divison in that they are deployed to france in may and will be in the south as the spear head of a attack ? You can also try to meet that with a attack around arras again probably but this time with french help i imagine to try to breaktrough to the south as planned in otl ? The brits dont panic as much thanks to the 1st armored murdering 2 panzer divisons in a day maybe and are more commited to the counterattack maybe ? This scenario seems alot more likely rather than the arras counterattack succeding enough to breaktrough.
 
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As an example, in May 1940 7th Panzer Division had
34 PzI, 68 Pz II, 91 Pz 38(t), 24 Pz IV with 2 Regiments of Infantry.
Granted, 7th Panzer was pretty light (compared to some other Panzer divisions), but in a head-to-head with a British Armoured Brigade, its way deficient in medium tanks.
It does have 88mm's in the AA regiment, but an Armoured Brigade will have SP guns and possible close support tanks with them.
To be fair, a French regiment was expected to field 120-150 tanks, most of which were fairly heavy. Of course the German tanks were more likely to work, and enjoyed a far more flexible doctrine. They also lacked the whole 'readiness' thing, but honestly if they were ready, they would probably still get mauled into ineffectiveness by sheer numbers.
 
If the Arras battle takes place as in OTL (and no, I'm not saying if it will or not!) and the 1st Armoured Division hits 7th Panzer and friends, its going to be a black day for the Panzers.
 
@Astrodragon , have you given any thought on Canada with your POD?

In June 1936 it was decided that Canada should have 6 tank battalions. I guess that would mean 144 tanks. Britain was way too slow to provide the needed numbers, with 2 light tanks arriving in 1938 and another 14 in summer 1939. It seems plausible to me, that before the "oh cr&p, we need 2 armoured divisions soon and we don't have the industrial capacity" moment, both Vickers and the RTC would welcome a canadian order to increase capacity in the factories.

This free book online, is a very decent source for ww2 in Canada
 
@Astrodragon , have you given any thought on Canada with your POD?

In June 1936 it was decided that Canada should have 6 tank battalions. I guess that would mean 144 tanks. Britain was way too slow to provide the needed numbers, with 2 light tanks arriving in 1938 and another 14 in summer 1939. It seems plausible to me, that before the "oh cr&p, we need 2 armoured divisions soon and we don't have the industrial capacity" moment, both Vickers and the RTC would welcome a canadian order to increase capacity in the factories.

This free book online, is a very decent source for ww2 in Canada
With actually useful tanks we might not see the Ram. Sad, but honestly a little bit cool.

Maybe Vickers could build a factory way over in Canada? Expensive, but it wouldn't detract from much industrial capacity in Britain.
 
I hadn't given too much thought to Canada, as in OTL they didn't do much until war.
A few possibilities; set up a tank plant to build either the Sabre or Cutlass (seen as currently the two best tanks)
Set up a factory for the Matilda
Set up for the Scimitar or its successor.
Setting up a plant will take a year to start, or they could try the locomotive works (who wouldn't be able to weld though).
The advantage to building an existing British tank is that a few can be shipped over for training before their own ones start coming off the line.
The main problem is they would need to work out how to build it using different production methods.
I could see them doing something like a Cutlass with cast hull and turret, for example

Or they could do as in OTL, trade tanks for loads of trucks and other equipment.
 
I thought that Inglis prior to the war had a contract to make Bren guns. Did Vickers not have a presence in Canada?
I'll have to check. Vickers was one of the biggest (if not the biggest) and most varied arms manufacturers in the world, they had tentacles and partnerships everywhere.
In any case, Canada will have contracts to build everything they can very soon
 
I hadn't given too much thought to Canada, as in OTL they didn't do much until war.
A few possibilities; set up a tank plant to build either the Sabre or Cutlass (seen as currently the two best tanks)
Set up a factory for the Matilda
Set up for the Scimitar or its successor.
Setting up a plant will take a year to start, or they could try the locomotive works (who wouldn't be able to weld though).
The advantage to building an existing British tank is that a few can be shipped over for training before their own ones start coming off the line.
The main problem is they would need to work out how to build it using different production methods.
I could see them doing something like a Cutlass with cast hull and turret, for example

Or they could do as in OTL, trade tanks for loads of trucks and other equipment.
But what about the 6 tank battalions the Canadians wanted back in 1936?

If there is a most advanced british tank industry, they may have already filled up the requirements after 3 years. That is a not an tiny number of tanks in 1939. Come winter 1939, these tanks may form the nucleus for an additional tank brigade- or even get used for training purposes in Britain so the british training tanks can form another brigade.

Before the war (at least before April 1939), there wouldn't have been additional canadian tank orders. So, I doubt a canadian tank factory would have been built in 1936, rather than british factories would have taken up the order.
 
You would not have SP arty in an infantry tank bde nor assign a battery to a Bde, you would consolidate it into Corps or divisional artillery and assign its FOO where needed, but its British so any FOO can call in fires from any unit and at corps level it draws on supply from corps assets.

The RA organizes by regiment with two firing batteries, with 4 gun troops at this point , if you don't you are doubling the number of specialists from the RASC, RAOC RCS needed to support each each firing battery, regiment at this point had 1 Officer an 1 NCO from each of the corps per regiment and again you don't need to allocate the battery to a brigade you allocate the FOO to the formation being supported with one FOO ( and possibly another observing party) being generated by each battery.

Giving a battery per bde doubles the tail requirement without increasing the firepower available.

Again important to remember there is a limitation not just on kit but also on trained personnel and the more new kit you introduce the more you dilute the numbers of trained personnel in the short term at least.

Why don't the RTC concentrate on the the tank brigade as the operational unit and match it with more supporting troops.

And that's why you don't do it. If the Bde is the operational unit then the BDE needs organic supply, bridging, workshop etc units. If you have them fine but even in 1944 when arguably the Western Allies do you keep artillery command centralised as far as possible because that's how you can commit 400 + guns to support an infantry company right now, and then another one in 20 minutes time 10 miles away.

In crude terms the Germans break down their firepower into penny packets to allow those packets to move independently and quickly but that reduces the firepower available to any single packet, The British mass the firepower but make it very flexible so it can act with overwhelming force in rapid succession. But it does mean the army as a whole wont move as fast as often.

This is actually slightly misleading as the other thing the British do is motorise the whole army so when it moves it actually moves very fast its but its power is from the massed fires and ability to destroy the enemy in place. When the British do break through its much more a pursuit than an attempt to achieve decision by maneuver.

The German system works - and is designed to work by surprise against comparatively weak opponents ( weak at the point of contact) which it can achieve because of mobility.

The mechanics of the fall of France really show this and are the exception vs peer opponents. The German breakthrough is 7 mobile divisions vs 2 very low quality French divisions attempting to cover something like 14 km of front. with the Germans also having 2000 aircraft directly in support. Thereafter its really a race on reaction time, the local French division and corps commanders are quite slow the Germans are not ( although note OKH is just as slow as the French) and the Germans are able to defeat local reserves in detail. After that its German forces moving at lets say 25km per day with the French 9th army fully engaged, so reserves have to come after GQG has given orders but it takes 48 hours for GQG to pass orders down to the executive level ( Gamelins testimony) which he can only do once someone tells him what's going on. So the Germans will be 50 km down the pike by the time the order to move goes to French forces. By 14 May ( 48 hours after the start of the attack) Guderian has 2 Pz Div motoring down the Somme in the way are 1 and 2 DCR 4 DCR forming and at least one DMI. They get no orders to do anything until its too late -so the DMI is caught asleep by a German Division it has no idea is in the area, one of the DCR is scattered over 80km when it gets an order to form up and not much else, they then fight a series of scattered company actions vs Panzer regiments etc etc.
Once the pocket is completed any substantial force approaching the perimeter will detected and disrupted by the luftwaffe well before it gets into tank gun range. As happened to Prioux on 22 May at Arras btw.

By 17 May its all over in Reynauds head at least. The BEF gets no orders until 19th and then acts with commendable speed, as indeed do the French units in the north but they are pocketed and the French in particular are living off supplies on hand at the time.
 
I thought that Inglis prior to the war had a contract to make Bren guns. Did Vickers not have a presence in Canada?
They had a shipyard in Montreal set up pre WW1, though I don't think it was in their hands by WW2. They had an aircraft branch that made mostly flying boats. But the subsidiary Canadian Vickers does exist, so there was possibly some opportunity there.
 
it is probably for when the war starts ? Maybe as part of my thought of setting up infantry carrier factories for the dominions in the fall of 39. India could use a tank factory aswell and armored car and few truck factories. I think this was done in 1940 in otl.
 
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They aren't going to add a section of SP guns to an Infantry Tank Brigade, because its assumed it will be supporting an Infantry Division with its own organic artillery. As they are tied to the infantry, the guns can keep up.

They are looking at possible attachments to an Independent Armoured Brigade to make it a stand-alone unit, but this is still being discussed. In any case, until they have the tanks for it its a moot point!

The Armoured Division is the base unit, its a full division with all the supporting knick-knaks. Splitting it in two is easy, and the support doesn't have to be even if you don't want that. If an Armoured Brigade is to go swanning around without an Infantry division, it will need some extras.
 
A good overview of Canadian Armored vehicle production during WW2

You basically had the CPR Angus Shop assembling Valentines and the Montreal Locomotive Works assembling Ram's, Grizzly's, Sextons, and Skinks. Both Facilities in Montreal.

The initial order for Valentines was made in Jan 1940, cancelled because the MOS didn't believe that a suitable factory existed in Canada and because the first Tanks would not be expected until 1941 and it would be better to wait until a more advanced design was tested. After the FOF the decision was reversed and 300 Valentines were ordered in June 1940 but the first plans only arrived in Canada in the Middle of August. In October only 90% of the plans were available. Between a lack of plans and components from Britain and Angus Workshops pretty slow building methods, the orders were behind schedule for some time and the whole lot of Valentines minus some 30 training tanks for the Canadian army, went to Russia. After that Montreal Locomotive works (who had already taken lead in the assembly of the Ram) became the only major assembly plant and Angus Shops joined the groups of component manufacturers.
 
If Agent Garbo sent the exact specs of the Covenanter over to Germany, his credibility would be in doubt that the British could make such a poor tank deliberately.

To be fair, on paper there's not a great deal wrong with the Covenanter - it compares pretty well with the mid models of the Pz.III (up to the Ausf G at least). Decent armour, decent gun and decent power from the engine.

It should have been a decent early-war cruiser/medium tank, on paper.
 
To be fair, on paper there's not a great deal wrong with the Covenanter - it compares pretty well with the mid models of the Pz.III (up to the Ausf G at least). Decent armour, decent gun and decent power from the engine.

It should have been a decent early-war cruiser/medium tank, on paper.
Well, with the direction tank designs are going ITTL, the Covenanter wont appear. Guess I'll just have to find something else for REME to practice on...
 

marathag

Banned
They had an aircraft branch that made mostly flying boats. But the subsidiary Canadian Vickers does exist, so there was possibly some opportunity there.
While not tank related, one of my desires is to have Canadian Vickers made more Bellanca Utility aircraft for WWII service, and replace the Lysander and a few other types.
 

marathag

Banned
It should have been a decent early-war cruiser/medium tank, on paper.
Rear engine/ front radiator doesn't even look good on paper.
Hey gang, let put the most vulnerable bit of the powerpack up front, where it can easily be shot at, _and_ roast the driver in his tiny position.
 
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