The Forge of Weyland
- Thread starter Astrodragon
- Start date
Oh my, methinks someone is going to drop the proverbial bombshell of 'these are three excellent designs, but we only have the funds for two of them... tryouts start tomorrow.'There. Everything's going spiffingley well for those lovely chaps in the RTC, right? New tanks coming and all.
However the other shoe is about to drop...
"No, damnit, nooooo! We still have stock in the warehouse! It's untaxed and everything!"Well, the Liberty isn't quite dead - Nuffield will have to be dragged away from it kicking and screaming - but its starting to look seriously endangered...
- overheard at the Nuffield offices through at least two layers of drywall.
"I'm sorry, but Lord Nuffield has had a private chat with the PM and all tanks will now have to use his liberty engine!"
I say once again. Some people just want to watch the world burn...."I'm sorry, but Lord Nuffield has had a private chat with the PM and all tanks will now have to use his liberty engine!"
It... depends. In OTL development of the Ram was started because following Dunkirk it became obvious that all UK tank production would be kept and none available for Canada. It was also determined that not much (that wasn't already being sold to the UK) was available from the US at the time so it was decided it was necessary to develop a domestic tank. Of course designing and producing a new tank from scratch takes time especially if you have no prior experience (and input from UK "experts" did not help) so by the time production was in full swing with the Mk.II (which I would argue was at least as good as the Sherman), the Sherman Pez dispenser was in operation and Shermans were much cheaper allowing production to shift to other vehicles.
So it depends upon availably of tanks from the UK and perhaps the possibility of getting a head start on domestic production of licensed tanks that are determined to be adequate. Absent that the drivers for the Ram still exist.
Just imagine being a German treadhead in you Pz II trundling through the Ardennes and meeting a Black Prince with a 25 pounder...
That is going to suck, and your last minutes will consist of the Tommys over yon wondering if you're some sort ofbluff by the German high command. Then boom.
It has just dawned on me quite how eclipsed the tanks of OTL will soon be. Even the surpisingly good Valentine and the Matilda 2 will be obsolescent or obsolete by the standards set here and I love it!
That is going to suck, and your last minutes will consist of the Tommys over yon wondering if you're some sort ofbluff by the German high command. Then boom.
It has just dawned on me quite how eclipsed the tanks of OTL will soon be. Even the surpisingly good Valentine and the Matilda 2 will be obsolescent or obsolete by the standards set here and I love it!
Not going to happen - if they do build that tank, it won't be in service until 1942.
Now trundling through the Ardennes and running into a Cutlass might be an equally trouser-changing experience...
Perhaps the most annoying thing about the two Vickers models is there was nothing to stop them being built in OTL, except a lack of understanding of what they actually wanted their armoured force to do, resulting in a totally borked set of tank specifications and equally bad production strategy.
3rd Feb 1939
3rd February 1939, Limited Liability revoked and the larger army
On the 2nd February, the doctrine of limited liability was finally formally revoked. The new size of the Army would be 10 divisions, two of them armoured, and appropriate TA reserves. Having finally got what they wished for, and a promise of funding, the Army now had a large problem to wrestle with - now to get all the equipment they needed, and how to get the manpower to use it all. There would need to be serious increases in the training system.
One of the ironies the RTC was well aware of was that having finally got what they'd been asking for, they now had to deal with the problems of actually doing it. The biggest problem was how to effectively double the size of the armoured formations. After three years, they hadn't even got the first armoured division compete. Ordering more tanks was fine, but as recent discussions had shown, ordering tanks wasn't like turning on a tap. It would take time for production to ramp up, no matter how many tanks they ordered.
Worse, they would have to implement massive increases in training. They would have to speed up the training of new crews, which also meant more trainers, and worse, a lot more tanks to be used for training. The exercises over the past few years had been invaluable in working out their new methods and doctrine, but the result of the inevitable heavy use of the existing armour had basically written it all off. At best, it could be used for basic familiarisation training at home, but the tanks were worn out. A less energetic exercise program might have avoided this.
The second problem was the lack of tanks for training. Currently they were assuming about 20% of the new tanks went to training and replacements. This was fine as long as they were looking at the old system of relatively small numbers of crews. The number allocated to training would have to go up, and this meant even fewer tanks would end up in service. There was even a suggestion - soon quashed - that maybe they could build a few hundred cheap light tanks. Granted they would have eased the training problem a little, and they could be built quite quickly, but that would divert effort from the tanks they really needed. Worse, despite all their lectures and demonstrations, there were still a lot of Army officers who didn't really understand the use of tanks. To them, anything with tracks was a tank, and they'd assume they could use a light tank as a cruiser. Which would result in lost battles, and a lot of dead tank crews. Better not to put temptation in their way.
The training issue was only going to get worse when they had to assign tanks for the infantry to train with. One thing that had been emphasised by the more successful infantry commanders in the exercises was the need for their men to know how to work with tanks and how best to support and be supported by them. While the RTC fully endorsed this, they hadn't expected to be needing to actually do the training for some time. The only thing they could really do to ease the problem was to have the tank crews from the tank regiments help out; that eased the manpower burden, but tanks would still be needed, they couldn't just wear out the regiments tanks in training.
Of course, it wasn't just the lack of tank numbers. The RTC had been expecting to form the Mobile Division this summer, once enough tanks had been built. Their intention had been to use the summer exercises to show the flaws, then spend the next year getting the division to operate smoothly. The EAF and later formations had basically been Brigade-sized units, and they'd never built a full Armoured Division before, there were going to be problems. Now it looked like they were going to have to do this 'on the run', and that was likely to cause even bigger problems.
Apart from the tanks, the rest of the equipment they needed was just as big a problem. Given the equipment scales needed for the new formations, there was a shortage of everything, from boots to bullets. The best that could be done was to get on with it. Fortunately the Division was already an approved unit, and formations had been allocated, or they suspected they would have had huge problems even putting the Division together. As it was, all their units would be fighting for their share of equipment. At least one senior officer was heard to remark he wasn't sure which was worse - not getting what you asked for, or actually getting it!
Still, at least now they wouldn't have to constantly fight just to get approval of what they needed to do. More tanks and carriers would be needed as soon as possible, and a review would be made of when orders could be placed to get the type they needed as early as possible. The numbers of tanks was alarming to those who'd been used to ordering tanks by the dozen; equipping the suggested two armoured divisions, and 2 independent armoured brigades, would take some 1,200 tanks, add training and replacements and some allowance for wastage and they were looking at more like 2,000. And Egypt would need additional formations on top of that!
While a full review of needs and production would take some weeks, it was decided to order an additional 150 A13 tanks from Nuffield, who had nearly finished their initial run of 70 tanks. The immediate fixes the company had offered would help, and the current thinking was that they could be sent out to Egypt. That would give Hobart at uniform tank Brigade, and the thinner armour of that model wouldn't be an issue facing the Italians. It would hopefully also give time for them to look at fixing the engine issues.
On the 2nd February, the doctrine of limited liability was finally formally revoked. The new size of the Army would be 10 divisions, two of them armoured, and appropriate TA reserves. Having finally got what they wished for, and a promise of funding, the Army now had a large problem to wrestle with - now to get all the equipment they needed, and how to get the manpower to use it all. There would need to be serious increases in the training system.
One of the ironies the RTC was well aware of was that having finally got what they'd been asking for, they now had to deal with the problems of actually doing it. The biggest problem was how to effectively double the size of the armoured formations. After three years, they hadn't even got the first armoured division compete. Ordering more tanks was fine, but as recent discussions had shown, ordering tanks wasn't like turning on a tap. It would take time for production to ramp up, no matter how many tanks they ordered.
Worse, they would have to implement massive increases in training. They would have to speed up the training of new crews, which also meant more trainers, and worse, a lot more tanks to be used for training. The exercises over the past few years had been invaluable in working out their new methods and doctrine, but the result of the inevitable heavy use of the existing armour had basically written it all off. At best, it could be used for basic familiarisation training at home, but the tanks were worn out. A less energetic exercise program might have avoided this.
The second problem was the lack of tanks for training. Currently they were assuming about 20% of the new tanks went to training and replacements. This was fine as long as they were looking at the old system of relatively small numbers of crews. The number allocated to training would have to go up, and this meant even fewer tanks would end up in service. There was even a suggestion - soon quashed - that maybe they could build a few hundred cheap light tanks. Granted they would have eased the training problem a little, and they could be built quite quickly, but that would divert effort from the tanks they really needed. Worse, despite all their lectures and demonstrations, there were still a lot of Army officers who didn't really understand the use of tanks. To them, anything with tracks was a tank, and they'd assume they could use a light tank as a cruiser. Which would result in lost battles, and a lot of dead tank crews. Better not to put temptation in their way.
The training issue was only going to get worse when they had to assign tanks for the infantry to train with. One thing that had been emphasised by the more successful infantry commanders in the exercises was the need for their men to know how to work with tanks and how best to support and be supported by them. While the RTC fully endorsed this, they hadn't expected to be needing to actually do the training for some time. The only thing they could really do to ease the problem was to have the tank crews from the tank regiments help out; that eased the manpower burden, but tanks would still be needed, they couldn't just wear out the regiments tanks in training.
Of course, it wasn't just the lack of tank numbers. The RTC had been expecting to form the Mobile Division this summer, once enough tanks had been built. Their intention had been to use the summer exercises to show the flaws, then spend the next year getting the division to operate smoothly. The EAF and later formations had basically been Brigade-sized units, and they'd never built a full Armoured Division before, there were going to be problems. Now it looked like they were going to have to do this 'on the run', and that was likely to cause even bigger problems.
Apart from the tanks, the rest of the equipment they needed was just as big a problem. Given the equipment scales needed for the new formations, there was a shortage of everything, from boots to bullets. The best that could be done was to get on with it. Fortunately the Division was already an approved unit, and formations had been allocated, or they suspected they would have had huge problems even putting the Division together. As it was, all their units would be fighting for their share of equipment. At least one senior officer was heard to remark he wasn't sure which was worse - not getting what you asked for, or actually getting it!
Still, at least now they wouldn't have to constantly fight just to get approval of what they needed to do. More tanks and carriers would be needed as soon as possible, and a review would be made of when orders could be placed to get the type they needed as early as possible. The numbers of tanks was alarming to those who'd been used to ordering tanks by the dozen; equipping the suggested two armoured divisions, and 2 independent armoured brigades, would take some 1,200 tanks, add training and replacements and some allowance for wastage and they were looking at more like 2,000. And Egypt would need additional formations on top of that!
While a full review of needs and production would take some weeks, it was decided to order an additional 150 A13 tanks from Nuffield, who had nearly finished their initial run of 70 tanks. The immediate fixes the company had offered would help, and the current thinking was that they could be sent out to Egypt. That would give Hobart at uniform tank Brigade, and the thinner armour of that model wouldn't be an issue facing the Italians. It would hopefully also give time for them to look at fixing the engine issues.
They are desperately short of tanks in Britain, why on earth would they send some to Singapore???
Singapore doesn't really need tanks, it needs Hurricanes and a general that knows what he's doing.
A couple of minelayers and a large stockpile of mines in the warehouses would be enough, and the minelayers could be converted tramp steamers not real warships.
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It wouldnt hurt when early 41 you are sending the reinforcements to send infantry tanks with them since malaya doesnt have dense jungle like wich was the main argument against them outside supply issues. Or the proposed australian armored divison but u provide the gear for that but yeah its very pointless for now about singapore. I have read stories where u get a australian corps and australian overall commander aswell .
You would rather send tanks to india if you had spare production but they dont have any is the main issue. And thats why i have talked about building tank factories before the war but the driver for it isnt there unless you get alot broader pod or earlier atleast.
You would rather send tanks to india if you had spare production but they dont have any is the main issue. And thats why i have talked about building tank factories before the war but the driver for it isnt there unless you get alot broader pod or earlier atleast.
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In 1939, Singapore is a sleepy tropical city with no nearby threats.
besides, tanks would just tear up the golf course.
besides, tanks would just tear up the golf course.
allanpcameron
Donor
What is it about Singapore! Honest to God, the Germans haven't even invaded Poland yet, and folk want to send tanks to Singapore!
Let the man tell the story....
And breathe...
Allan
Let the man tell the story....
And breathe...
Allan
Right now the biggest threats to the British in Singapore are the large number of interesting social diseases circulating in South East Asia and potential alcohol poisoning.
Yes and no - half a million people squished into an island the size of NYC (hardly sleepy), and relations with Japan are starting to break down.
Tropical OTOH is correct. And tanks are allergic to jungles.