The Forge of Weyland

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Lord Okkirke

Astrodragon said:
I think they would always fire when stopped. The basic idea would be to keep up with the armoured vehicles, then take an overwatch position when they stop. A moving tank isnt that worried by a 1940 ground attack plane, any losses would basically be bad luck. The most fragile element is dismounted infantry and engineers. Having the AA gun ready in a minute or two to protect them is a big advantage, and it can go anywhere the carriers go. Nothing to stop it firing on the move, but it isn't going to hit anything! Normal crew was 4 - gunner, loader, observer, gun captain.
Mounting it on a carrier means it doesn't cost that much more than a towed gun, but at the moment the carriers are owned by the tankies and their little friends. This will change over time.
As its a high velocity 20mm, its also possible to give them a couple of drums of proper AP shells, just in case they run into enemy recon vehicles.
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So the driver in this case doubles as the observer?
 
Derek Pullem

Derek Pullem

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Astrodragon said:
I think they would always fire when stopped. The basic idea would be to keep up with the armoured vehicles, then take an overwatch position when they stop. A moving tank isnt that worried by a 1940 ground attack plane, any losses would basically be bad luck. The most fragile element is dismounted infantry and engineers. Having the AA gun ready in a minute or two to protect them is a big advantage, and it can go anywhere the carriers go. Nothing to stop it firing on the move, but it isn't going to hit anything! Normal crew was 4 - gunner, loader, observer, gun captain.
Mounting it on a carrier means it doesn't cost that much more than a towed gun, but at the moment the carriers are owned by the tankies and their little friends. This will change over time.
As its a high velocity 20mm, its also possible to give them a couple of drums of proper AP shells, just in case they run into enemy recon vehicles.
Click to expand...
And so the the "technical" is born............ :biggrin:

LRDG gonna love these
 
Driftless

Driftless

Donor
Astrodragon said:
They could be mounted on the back of a truck quite easily.
The only real problem with these is that everyone is going to want them, or the towed version, and there wont be nearly enough to go around
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IF, (big IF) there's a post-Dunkirk resembling the panic of our history, and Vickers already has the license and production line in operation, I'd think this 20mm would likely be fast-tracked for spamming out quantities, for both defense of the home islands and for replenishing the field forces. Certainly not a wonder weapon, but one of those useful tools where numbers on the front line are important.

Of course, they wouldn't know that yet. ;)
 

Astrodragon

Driftless said:
IF, (big IF) there's a post-Dunkirk resembling the panic of our history, and Vickers already has the license and production line in operation, I'd think this 20mm would likely be fast-tracked for spamming out quantities, for both defense of the home islands and for replenishing the field forces. Certainly not a wonder weapon, but one of those useful tools where numbers on the front line are important.

Of course, they wouldn't know that yet. ;)
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What I haven't yet decided is if they will combine the production line for this and the RN version (which will be a little better and a lot simpler to maintain). Probably, it would make sense. The RN wanted a LOT of light AA weapons
 
Driftless

Driftless

Donor
Where/Who were making most of the 20mm ammunition pre-war and during the war? At this point, the potential demand curve is starting to look a bit steeper from OTL, so how does the supply side adapt?
 

Peg Leg Pom

This is the later Polsten Gun but I'm sure it would work well enough with an Oerlikon.

1610984043066.png
 

Astrodragon

Driftless said:
Where/Who were making most of the 20mm ammunition pre-war and during the war? At this point, the potential demand curve is starting to look a bit steeper from OTL, so how does the supply side adapt?
Click to expand...
Probably the same factories making all the other light ammo, iirc it was spread across the ROF's. Britain made loads of ammo in all sorts of sizes, making a new calibre is prety simple for them, even if they dont make it already
 
Driftless

Driftless

Donor
Depending on numbers and training, this (vehicle mounted 20mm) could be another subtle and plausible upgrade to the Mobile Force.

I could see a tweak to the opening of the Battle of France, if there are sufficient numbers to have an impact. The Stukas, would become a bit more cautious in their attacks, so not as many sorties? If they are suffering painful losses, would the fighters get tasked with more strafing runs, to clear a path for the Stukas? Either way, the Luftwaffe effectiveness is diminished, but to what degree?

When the mobile 20mm's value becomes apparent, and war-time spending increases, could that weapon become a standard across the Army for local defense?
 

Tangles up aubergine

Driftless said:
Depending on numbers and training, this (vehicle mounted 20mm) could be another subtle and plausible upgrade to the Mobile Force.

I could see a tweak to the opening of the Battle of France, if there are sufficient numbers to have an impact. The Stukas, would become a bit more cautious in their attacks, so not as many sorties? If they are suffering painful losses, would the fighters get tasked with more strafing runs, to clear a path for the Stukas? Either way, the Luftwaffe effectiveness is diminished, but to what degree?

When the mobile 20mm's value becomes apparent, and war-time spending increases, could that weapon become a standard across the Army for local defense?
Click to expand...
That's before you get to the additional flexibility it affords RAF fighter crews, if they don't need to be overhead of their own forces, they can go and have a playdate with the other team for a while.
 

Astrodragon

The need for organic AA actually goes back to the EAF exercises and their follow-ons again. They've been used to having the RAF in support, and realise that the Germans can do the same thing to them. So AA is seen by them as important. The infantry divisions aren't nearly as familiar with air support, and aren't thinking about it so much. Once the tankies get some new toys, then of course they'll want some too!

The armour isn't invulnerable to air attack, but its a very hard target, especially on the move. The Infantry are softer, but when moving are still difficult to kill, the carriers are splinter and mg proof, so the attacker will need a cannon. Dug in infantry are easier to hurt, and that's when the AA guns are needed most. So while they would prefer to have Hurricanes overhead, not having them is a nuisance rather than a mission-killer.
 

Millsy

while we are on Loyd carriers i would point out the 2pdr SPAG that was developed and also the below for the infantry maybe at platoon level - i'd seen the quad bren one before but not the sextuple bren !

loyd.png
 

Tangles up aubergine

Millsy said:
while we are on Loyd carriers i would point out the 2pdr SPAG that was developed and also the below for the infantry maybe at platoon level - i'd seen the quad bren one before but not the sextuple bren !

View attachment 617644
Click to expand...
Tht is one beautiful machine. One look and you can see how the military reacted to the prototype.
"MOAR DAKKA!" That's a good design philosophy right there.

Laughs aside, how close is it to our draconic AFV enthusiast's imaginings?
 
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