The Forge of Weyland

marathag

Banned
Rifle caliber rounds are less than effective against fast moving metal aircraft with armour and self sealing fuel tanks.
Me-109F and earlier had rudementary self sealing tanks, and no armorglass yet, and have liquid cooled radiators and oil coolers, Ju-87B had very exposed oil cooler and radiator, with little armor
the big survivability changes came after the France was done
 
Yeah as i said before the airforce delayed it atleast a year for some reason in otl for the 20mm cannons . Basicly insist on the 20mm cannon for the fighterbomber role would be the main argument the army can make and a lesser argument for light AA units and there is a driver for this in the timeline. This would also help for the battle of britain in further german casualties.

As i said , the french PM wasnt thrilled with gamelin at all and if you want to fight a diffrent battle of france scenario then having a diffrent commander be a thing could be a thing to explain a diffrent battle of france if you want abit french perfomance. I know there arent many drivers for this but during the ministry change you could also fire gamelin wich im pretty sure the PM wanted to do. In otl he got fired at a bad time and the new guy took about 2 days to get in charge and after that he wasnt very effective thanks to french confusion mainly .

And the main butterfly that i can see coming without changing things alot should be a arras counter attack by a massive armored divison rather than the otl matildas will be a truly a horrific thing for the germans . It might even have a chance of breaking through to the south and give the option of evacuating your troops south that you were about to evacuate from the ports . There would still be horrific fighting atleast compared to otl and there would be alot material losses and you wouldnt loose the best french commanders would be its main benefit i think. If the BEF , belgians and the two french armies can rush through the opened corridor then things will be very diffrent and the bef and the french should be able to dash through the breakthrough cause they were motorized and the sickle cut wasnt super wide. If the french can evacuate to france with mostly their gear and the same for the BEF there could be massive changes for the 2nd part of the battle of france . I think the germans would still win but they would loose alot more troops and gear doing this and if things are going well enough you might also avoid vichy france and have a france fights on scenario from their empire wich would be massive change to otl.
 
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At this time, looking at a carrier mounted twin .50 cal. AAA, as a supplement use a truck or trailer mount the RN quad .50cal mount. Yes 20mm is better, but as said before, this is 1938, not summer 1940.
Exactly my point, what can be put together using existing equipment at this point in time inexpensively? Trying to keep it 1938.
 
DeGaulle's report
DeGaulle's Report on the British Army 1938 Summer Exercise

Colonel DeGaulle considered his words carefully before starting on his report on the British Army summer exercises he'd returned from. While he had found fault with some of the ideas and actions he'd witnessed, there were some aspects that would be worth looking at more deeply.

First, the men. The British Armoured formation was obviously professional, only to be expected of long term soldiers, and knew their jobs well. There had been issues with some of the vehicles, but his liaison had explained that they were using the exercise to have a first look at some of their new equipment, and in some cases training had been rushed to get them on the field. He could understand that - the politicians in France as well were less than forthcoming for the money needed for vital exercises, and maximising the lessons learnt was only prudent.

The tactics used he had found interesting, although by no means perfect.

The first was their aim to if possible bypass the enemy to strike at his rear and B-echelon troops. While he agreed with that as an efficient way of defeating the enemy, he was less than convinced about the way they went about it. Their first aim was to outflank. If that failed, to exploit a weak point found by their reconnaissance troops, and as a last result to punch a hold to drive their exploitation force through. While such tactics might well be effective against lesser opposition, such as the Italian forces they faced in North Africa, he considered it far less likely to work against the Germans. Leaving your flanks unguarded, or weak points, was an amateur mistake the German Army was not going to make. A German force would have to be attacked first. This was why the French Army had the Char B, a tank designed to break through a defence. He was unconvinced that the British heavy tanks were capable of this. While faster and more mobile than the Char B, they didn't mount the powerful gun it carried to reduce fortifications. It would do the job they intended, to support an infantry attack, but this would be of limited use against a well prepared enemy. It didn't help that he considered their artillery support too light by French standards. He felt that their methods and equipment would lead to too many casualties unless luck was on their side.

The second part of the exercises he had seen was more interesting. The forces had been used first to counter-attack an infantry breakthrough, then in defence to fortify the infantry against a more powerful force. He could see both tactics being useful if France was attacked by Germany. The use of a powerful tank force to 'plug the gap' or ideally destroy a breakthrough was suited to the fast moving armoured formation. The use of tanks to reinforce was again only good tactics, and the French Army already had such plans.

The issue he had was with their equipment. They had good, fast heavy tanks, but only in small numbers. They had nothing like the supply of smaller infantry support tanks the French had, and he wasn't convinced that they could handle such a defence. Their medium, Cruiser, tanks were good, on a par with the S-35. A rather different design philosophy, but overall similar machines - reasonably fast, well protected and with a good gun. He noted that the British were still using the idea of the 5-man crew. The number of men such crews used was presumably of less importance in a relatively small tank force than the French one. He did appreciate the idea - allowing the commander freedom to command was certainly of benefit, although three men in the turret seemed too many. A four man crew was probably the best compromise, and he made a note to ask if they were still looking at the idea of a new model of S-35 that incorporated this concept.

He had noted that the British tanks seemed reliable. Obviously exercises were not quite normal conditions, every tank unit made sure all their vehicles were as ready as possible beforehand, something not always possible in a real war, but they hadn't had many breakdowns. What he had seen that he wanted to recommend was the way they allocated recovery vehicles to assist or withdraw broken down (or marked as damaged by the umpires) tanks for repair either behind the front lines, or taken by transported to the base workshop area. That would certainly reduce tanks lost to mechanical failures, and perhaps more should be done along these lines. It was notable that certain breakdowns, like a broken track, were repaired much faster than on most French tanks.

The infantry carriers he had found interesting. They were used mainly to carry troops, rather than supplies, a reversal of their use in the French Army. They had seemed rugged vehicles, although he felt the lack of things like a specialised vehicle for refuelling the tanks was a serious omission.

In all, he supposed he could sum up his report as interesting, some promising ideas and vehicles, but the need more work and better tactics. One of the more senior British officers had mentioned to him, in the mess after the exercise, that it was a pity they couldn't arrange some sort of exercise with the French armour, such a thing would likely be of benefit to both countries. He decided to see if someone higher up would consider the idea. While he felt that the British would get the most benefit from French experience, they had shown a few promising ideas, and an enemy with different equipment and ideas was a better opponent than your own men.
 

Ramontxo

Donor
Exactly my point, what can be put together using existing equipment at this point in time inexpensively? Trying to keep it 1938.

Basic model in service since 1926 in the RN. It was manually operated but the American version had power operation and it could have been fitted so before
Edited to add that there was an hidraulic operated twin gun version in RN service with a weight of 47s kgs.


WNBR_5-62_mk3_pic.jpg
 
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Basic model in service since 1926 in the RN. It was manually operated but the American version had power operation and it could have been fitted so before
View attachment 616708
I was thinking of this but a cut down lighter version, a twin without the two lower barrels, the navy version doesn't have to be mobile. Of course it wouldn't take too big a leap if an operator thought, "I wonder what happens if we use this firing horizontally?"
 

Ramontxo

Donor
I was thinking of this but a cut down lighter version, a twin without the two lower barrels, the navy version doesn't have to be mobile. Of course it wouldn't take too big a leap if an operator thought, "I wonder what happens if we use this firing horizontally?"
I have edited the post with a Link to the article in NavWeaps. There was an hidraulic operated twin gun version with a weight of 472 kgs about a thousand pounds
This an photo of the Mark IV (the Mk V being the power operated one)
4835.jpg
 
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Coulsdon Eagle

Monthly Donor
As i said , the french PM wasnt thrilled with gamelin at all and if you want to fight a diffrent battle of france scenario then having a diffrent commander be a thing could be a thing to explain a diffrent battle of france if you want abit french perfomance. I know there arent many drivers for this but during the ministry change you could also fire gamelin wich im pretty sure the PM wanted to do. In otl he got fired at a bad time and the new guy took about 2 days to get in charge and after that he wasnt very effective thanks to french confusion mainly .

IIRC Gamelin was protected in the political sphere by Daladier. Reynaud did not feel strong enough to remove Gamelin, which he supposedly wished to do, while Daladier remained in the Cabinet, and we saw how defeatist some of the Cabinet were.
 
Given that I'm not planning to rewrite French politics (that way lies madness!), Gamelin is probably safe until after the Battle of France, unless he gets run over by a tank
 
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Crossley D2E2 Armoured car from 1933 fitted with twin 0.5" anti aircraft guns. Not adopted but at least it was tested. Hence quite reasonable to consisder somthing developed from this concept for 1937/38
 
And i knew that just that im not very familar with the french and the figures but i knew the reason why he didnt get fired in otl is as u said.

Yeah i suspected that , then maybe dont let gamelin be fired like he did in otl atleast ? I know french high command performance was horrible but it wasnt down to him it was more a doctorinal issues and them preparing to fight ww1 again more or less.
 
Excellent stuff as always, one thing I will point out with the French and their continued long love affair with the 1 man turret was largely down to one issue. Cost. The smaller turrets are lighter, easier to make, or you just take the turret and gun of the FT-17 and put that in place on a more modern chassis and you had a new tank. The vast majority of the French military budget had been gobbled up by the Maginot Line as well as the need to expand the airforce and give the navy some more modern warships, and the army came a distant 3rd for stuff like tank, especially as the French doctrine had shifted into the Controlled Battle mindset which was basically 'artillery is king, queen and god' and battles were to be fought where infantry would hold the enemy, supported by tanks and massed artillery from 75's up to 155 and more.

And to get the tanks they needed in the numbers they wanted, corners were cut where needed, hence producing large numbers of small tanks with 1 man turrets and the guns pulled directly from the FT-17 to try and bulk up the numbers. As the French viewed their tanks as infantry support, they tended to have heavy armour and be slow, but until the S-35 and Char 1bis came out they were almost uniformly cheap vehicles. Tough, but with small guns, slow speed, small size and thick armour.
 
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The Royal Air Force and Royal Navy would join up to kick the Army in the teeth and ribs if they started trying to take 'their' 20 mms. The RN was screaming out for them for their ships and the RAF needed them for its aircraft.
Well the Royal Navy could standardise on the Oerlikon 20 mm auto-cannon, assuming the Air Ministry got its finger out the RAF the Hispano-Suiza HS.404 20 mm auto-cannon. The Army can get by until the shortages have eased slightly before changing over.


... but I think that [in] this timeline the British have moved on and realised that they need more range and hitting power than even a .50-cal MG can provide - and that's for AA as well as ground targets.
Have they? If you look at the aircraft their most likely opponents are currently fielding in-timeline twin, or quadruple, 0.50-inch calibre heavy machine guns loaded with a large percentage of tracer ammunition seem like they would be adequate. As marathag wrote even during the Battle of France the German aircraft would still be susceptible unless something changes. There's also the cost issue – auto-cannons are going to be more expensive than heavy machine guns.


[Vickers .50 machine gun] in service since 1926 in the RN. It was manually operated but the American version had power operation and it could have been fitted so before ... there was an hydraulic operated twin-gun version in RN service with a weight of 47 kg.
Unfortunately if the Army looks for a heavy machine gun they're likely going to have to use the Vickers .50 machine gun rather than the M2 Browning due to cost and nationality issues.
 
Well the Royal Navy could standardise on the Oerlikon 20 mm auto-cannon, assuming the Air Ministry got its finger out the RAF the Hispano-Suiza HS.404 20 mm auto-cannon. The Army can get by until the shortages have eased slightly before changing over.



Have they? If you look at the aircraft their most likely opponents are currently fielding in-timeline twin, or quadruple, 0.50-inch calibre heavy machine guns loaded with a large percentage of tracer ammunition seem like they would be adequate. As marathag wrote even during the Battle of France the German aircraft would still be susceptible unless something changes. There's also the cost issue – auto-cannons are going to be more expensive than heavy machine guns.



Unfortunately if the Army looks for a heavy machine gun they're likely going to have to use the Vickers .50 machine gun rather than the M2 Browning due to cost and nationality issues.
There are actually 3 issues. Effectiveness, cost and availability.
The RAF has already established that the best aircraft weapon is the 20mm cannon. So that'd the better solution if you are starting from a clean sheet.
The cost is higher than MG's, but if your mounting it on tracks, there is very little difference in the total cost.
Availability is the awkward question. The aircraft cannons aren't quite what the army and RN need (which is why they didn't use them in OTL), the requirements are a bit different. For some reason no-one set up a production line in the UK until 40-41, even though the Swiss weren't delivering on time. That's just a matter of someone like Vickers getting a license and setting up a production line, then they sell it to the Navy too. They do have an advantage, they dont need to do any belt fed modifications, the drum fed will be fine.
 
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