The Forge of Weyland

Driftless

Donor
Yes, I'm currently trying to work out how many Scammels. Does anyone know just how many they had pre-war? They did seem to make a lot, but I haven't been able to find out when. Given that they are now looking at an Armoured Division, its almost certain they'll buy more.

I found this reference at milweb.net: Scammel Pioneer Tank Transporter

In all, 115 of these 20 ton tank transporters were made

I have a soft spot for the Pioneer. The basic chassis was used for pulling an integral transporter; or in a somewhat different configuration, it was used as a prime mover or a recovery/tow truck. I've read that in the transporter layout, the frame was longer, the cab lengthened(for hauling additional riders), and larger tires were used. the trailer was more-or-less permanently attached, not easily disconnected as modern rigs are. The Pioneer was tough as an old boot too.
 
I found this reference at milweb.net: Scammel Pioneer Tank Transporter



I have a soft spot for the Pioneer. The basic chassis was used for pulling an integral transporter; or in a somewhat different configuration, it was used as a prime mover or a recovery/tow truck. I've read that in the transporter layout, the frame was longer, the cab lengthened(for hauling additional riders), and larger tires were used. the trailer was more-or-less permanently attached, not easily disconnected as modern rigs are. The Pioneer was tough as an old boot too.
That seems a bit odd. The wiki says they made 3,414 Scammels. Not all as tank transporters, but 115 seems terribly low. I've also found 459 for the 30-ton transporter.
I may have to get creative...
 

Driftless

Donor
I'm not a pheasant plucker, I'm a pheasant plucker's son
I'm only plucking pheasants 'till the pheasant plucker comes.

Me husband is a keeper, he's a very busy man
I try to understand him and I help him all I can,
But sometimes in an evening I feel a trifle dim
All alone, I'm plucking pheasants, when I'd rather pluck with him.

I'm not a pheasant plucker, I'm a pheasant plucker's mate
I'm only plucking pheasants 'cos the pheasant plucker's late !

I'm not good at plucking pheasants, at pheasant plucking I get stuck
Though some pheasants find it pleasant I'd rather pluck a duck.
Oh plucking geese is gorgeous, I can pluck a goose with ease
But pheasant plucking's torture because they haven't any grease.

I'm not a pheasant plucker, he has gone out on the tiles
He only plucked one pheasant and I'm sitting here with piles !

You have to pluck them fresh, if it’s fresh they’re not unpleasant,
I knew a man in Dunstable who could pluck a frozen pheasant.
They say the village constable had pheasant plucking sessions
With the vicar on a Sunday ‘tween the first and second lessons.

I'm not a pheasant plucker, I'm a pheasant plucker's mum
I'm only plucking pheasants 'till the pheasant plucker's come.

My good friend Godfrey is most adept, he's really got the knack
He likes to have a pheasant plucked before he hits the sack.
I like to give a helping hand, I gather up the feathers,
It's really all our pheasant plucking keeps us pair together.

I'm not a pheasant plucker, I'm a pheasant plucker's friend
I'm only plucking pheasants as a means unto an end !

My husband's in the forest always banging with his gun
If he could hear me half the time I'm sure that he would run,
For there's fluff in all my crannies, there's feathers up my nose
And I'm itching in the kitchen from my head down to my toes.

I'm not a pheasant plucker, I'm a pheasant plucker's wife
And when we pluck together it's a pheasant plucking life !

I wonder if the non-native English speakers will get this? :openedeyewink:

Read it aloud as fast as you can, or indulge in some alcoholic beverage before you read it aloud...... Or both.....
 

Glyndwr01

Banned
Read it aloud as fast as you can, or indulge in some alcoholic beverage before you read it aloud...... Or both.....
After LionHeart 1984; 30 of us drunk as arseholes standing on the tables of a bar in Olen belting that out to the bemusement of the locals! No problems we paid for the drinks and damages in advance, (after the last time in Germany, no sense of humour those German Police)
 

Glyndwr01

Banned
They should have been grateful you weren't doing the Dance of the flaming A***holes.
Or Getu'm down you Zulu Warrior was another favorite in our regiment!
I had third degree burns from doing the Dance of the flaming A***holes, too drunk to properly tightly roll the paper to slow the burn, I'm basically a Sasquatch under my clothes and the paper caused a brush fire through out the lower regions, a week in the hospital and docked a months pay! CO was laughing is head off throughout the dressing down!!!!
 
That seems a bit odd. The wiki says they made 3,414 Scammels. Not all as tank transporters, but 115 seems terribly low. I've also found 459 for the 30-ton transporter.
I may have to get creative...
I think the difference might be in the versions.
3414 scammel pioneers.
Of these, from the wiki:
980 RS100 heavy artillery tractors
43 SV1S recovery vehicles
1,975 SV2S recovery vehicles
459 20/30 ton tank transporters (maybe 115 were 20 tonners?)
Add that together: 3,457.
If the SV2S number includes the SV1S, then the total is the same as the total at the top.

Easiest changes:
1) the alternative heavy artillery tractor, the Albion CX22S gets used instead, leaving more production for transporters.
The Albion was only produced from '43, but was based on the earlier CX22N (don't know how much earlier, but presumably pre-war).
2) the AEC matador takes up the job of medium tractor earlier, leaving more room for transporters.
The matador 4x2 was made from 1932, the 4x4 military version from 38. Start that earlier?
3) Scammell get more orders, and build more earlier. 1st artillery tractor 1935, 1st recovery vehicle 1936, But 1st experimental tank transporter was 1932, 1st production transporter not until 1937.
As the pioneer was originally designed for non-military use in 1927, and according to the wiki was widely used for logging and oil field work, making some more for military use if the money is available shouldn't be too difficult.
4) the artillery tractor had a hook on the back for a heavy gun.
The tank transporter had a trailer semi-permanently attached.
Design a trailer to use the artillery hook instead, and the tank transporter is less different from the artillery tractor.
And the artillery tractor can be used as a tank transporter in a pinch. (if the artillery hook isn't strong enough for a full weight tank, then a carrier transporter).

Apparently all the scammels were powered by a gardner 102bhp 6 cylinder diesel.
Would using that for the alt Loyd carrier help with commonality, and provide enough power?
 
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Thanks for the data!
They can swap the Lloyd carrier for some of the tractor versions if they wish, making more transporters available.
Given a bigger amount of heavy armour, they'd want more transporters
 
Just looked it up - the long tom, which was towed by the artillery tractor, weighed more than 13 tons.
So a trailer that could attach to that hook should be good for anything up to that weight at least.
As the vehicle could pull heavier weights than that in OTL (up to and including centurian), make the hook stronger and it can take anything.
 
US tests found the 75mm Pack Howitzer devastating against half inch armor, and that was with HE shells.

M1 Combat Car, converted as the T3 GMC started 1938, finished early 1939 9 Long tons,
View attachment 613940
T3%2BHMC%2B%25281%2529.png


Too small, so redid an T5 Medium
View attachment 613938View attachment 613939
and that was in April, 1939
Sighting turret with rangefinder
Looks like a prototype for either or both the M-3 Grant or M-7 Priest (SPG)!
 
A small thing: untie one side of the tarp, flip it over the other side of the carrier, and with a couple of tent poles and ropes, you've got an impromptu shelter from rain or sun.
Tarpaulins? I don't know about that, all sounds frightfully common.

Officers_of_the_11th_Hussars_in_a_Morris_CS9_armoured_car_use_a_parasol_to_give_shade_while_out_patrolling_on_the_Libyan_frontier%2C_26_July_1940._E380.jpg


... to the bemusement of the locals!
Well after fifty-odd years of having squaddies traipsing around Lower Saxony and North Rhine Westphalia they were probably used to their, ah... foibles by that point.


1) The alternative heavy artillery tractor, the Albion CX22S gets used instead, leaving more production for transporters. The Albion was only produced from '43, but was based on the earlier CX22N (don't know how much earlier, but presumably pre-war).
I would be careful with the Albions, can't remember if it was the S or the N but I read somewhere that they were considered fairly rubbish.
 
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What about a 6x6 version of the Matador for the Army? The RAF used the extended Type A chassis for refueling tankers and tow vehicles for hauling Sunderlands out of the water.
 
Lulworth 1937
2nd June 1937, MEE Farnborough

Sergeant Web was sitting in the Sergeants mess having some beers with some of his mates and a couple of the Czech sergeants who'd come to take care of their tank while it had been under test. It was due to be sent home in a week or so, while the earlier reports indicated they wouldn't be recommending it, the busy schedule of checking out the new Vickers tanks had slowed things down a bit.

"You know, I still don't know why you people insist on firing on the move! Its so inaccurate."

Web took a sip of his beer and gave the man a somewhat condescending look. "That's because you aren't trained to do it! When you are, well, it's a lot harder to hit us while we're moving."

Sgt Kubka shrugged. "So you say, but we tried it a long time ago and found that if you were moving fast enough to be a bad target, you couldn't hit anything either! Not to mention how long it took to train men up to do it. Our system gives you a far better chance at killing your enemy before he hits you."

*******

"So, Sir, I was thinking. As they don't have to go back for a week, the Czechs have challenged us to a shooting match. Their tank against one of ours, to see which of us is right about controlling the gun with the gunner. Of course, I'm sure we'd win, but I thought I'd mention it. It would be an interesting contest."

The Captain looked thoughtful. "It would be interesting, and after all the work we've been doing, a little exercise like this would be good for the men."

"Well, Sir, I know a few of the Sergeants at Lulworth. They said it would be pretty easy to fit us in at this time of year, so if we asked they thought it could be done. They'd set the range up and act as neutral umpires."

"I think it would be interesting, Sergeant. We know our system is better, but maybe if we showed the Czechs that they adopt it and then we might actually buy some of their tanks. I'll have a chat with Lulwort, see if we can get something in before we have to pack the LT-35 up for shipping."


8th June 1936, Lulworth Ranges, Dorset


"Well, that was rather embarrassing."

Captain Johnson nodded, as he made some notes in the margin of the report by the Range officer on the recent contest. They'd borrowed a light tank and crew from Bovington, and the results had not been as expected.

"It looks like the Czechs beat us from 1200 yards down to about 500. Then it became a lot more even. They even complained that we couldn't range at 1500 yards like they could, but judging from the results that wouldn't have helped us in the slightest."

His companion looked gloomy. "We can't even blame our crew, they actually did a bit better than the average on the targets. You don't think this idea of stopping to fire and then moving off again is better than firing while moving? That would be a shock."

Captain Johnson shrugged. "Well, firing on the move is a good idea, it is harder to hit a moving target. The problem seemed to be that it was also harder to hit them at range. I wonder if the new longer range guns have affected our assumptions?"

"Maybe they have, but I'd keep quiet about it if I were you. There are some very senior officers who take firing on the move to be holy gospel. It won't do your career any good to start attacking it."

"But what if we are wrong?"

The older man thought. "Well. Doesn't one of those new tanks you're testing have a geared elevation, like the Czech tank?"

"Yes, the Infantry one. The guns too big and heavy for a man to control on his shoulder. The Cruiser tank is shoulder managed, of course."

"Well, when they are accepted, maybe I can have some quiet words and arrange some trials. See what happens. That way we don't have to explain how we lost on our own course to some foreign tankers."


30th June 1937, War Office


The meeting on the placement of future tank orders was being chaired by Sir Hugh Elles, the Master General of Ordnance. It had been convened to go over the work of Sir Harold Browns department, who had been looking at the progress of the tanks currently under development, and comparing these to the needs of the RTC.

At the moment, they had 70 Mk IVD on order, as well as 150 of the brand new A10* Cruiser tank. While a good start, this was nothing like the number of tanks needed just to replace old, worn out ones and provide a training cadre, let alone equip the Armoured Division that was wanted.

The first issue to be considered was the Infantry tank. Of the two contenders, the Vickers A11 had gone through testing, and the MEE were pleased with it. Subject to some minor modifications that could be done on the first production batch, it looked like it was ready to be ordered. By using the smaller Kiki engine in place of the larger diesel unit they'd originally intended, they'd even been able to squeeze another 12 rounds in. The issue was how many they could order, and how fast could they be produced. Vickers were finishing rebuilding a tank production line at their Elswick site, and this would be making the A10*. A second production line would be set up at Harland & Wolf for that tank. Vickers expected to produce 10 tanks a month at Elswick, but had said that with some money from the government they could easily double that, they had made provision for expanding the plant. Harland & Wolf were currently building 35 of the MkIVD, but as they were finished they would move on to the A10*, initially at 5/month, but rising to 10 as they finished the works. Again, with further investment production could be increased considerably.

Vickers had suggested that an order for the infantry tank could be produced by their Chertsey site. This was also undergoing a rebuild, but was a little behind Elswick. Consideration had been given to also building at Birmingham Railway Carriage & Wagon Company and Metropolitan-Cammell Carriage & Wagon Company, who were already associated with Vickers. Vickers had suggested that, for the immediate future, these companies could build assemblies and components, to be assembled at the main tank plants; if a considerable increase in tank production was needed, then new tank production could be set up, with help from Vickers. However with the numbers currently projected, they felt the most efficient method was to concentrate the final construction work in fewer plants.

Originally the Army had been considering a large order of light tanks this summer, figures of up to 240 had been suggested, but these had gone out of favour, and instead the money would be better spent on more Cruiser and Infantry tanks. Instead of these, the decision was to order 90 of the A11 infantry tank from Vickers, who would start up production at the Chertsey works. Vickers expected to be able to deliver the tanks over an 18 month period, as it would take a while to finish the works and get a production line in operation. The order would allow the formation of a first tank battalion, as well as provide tanks for training.

While this covered the tank orders, these were not the only vehicles needed to make a balanced Armoured division. The Ordnance men has been impressed with the recent presentation of the Birch gun presentation; as a result an order was given for a prototype, and if this proved successful, they would be looking to order around 120 over the next couple of years. Vickers would be asked to give timescales for production once the gun had passed inspection.

The Cavalry also needed new equipment. As they would no longer be getting light tanks, the need to order armoured cars for them was getting urgent. It was hoped that the firms interested would be providing prototypes in a few months, and these were marked for priority at the testing establishment.

The final vehicle under discussion was the Lloyd Carrier. Vivian Lloyd expected to be delivering the first prototype next month, and it was again intended to order these as soon as the MEE had signed off on it. The carrier would cover a number of roles in the RTC, and they expected to order an initial 300, 200 of which would be the version with the armoured roof for troop use. This would be enough to train, and equip a number of battalions, after which they would evaluate the use in practice and then place further orders.
 
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