marathag
Banned
Note that the 360 rotation of the 2 pdr platform was nice, but heavy. It couldn't be shoved around by a couple strong Lads like the US and German 37mm, 1795 pounds vs 913 pounds of the M3 or 990 of the Pak 36
The Forge of Weyland
- Thread starter Astrodragon
- Start date
marathag
Banned
The 2 pdr gun, on a simplified platform, would be far more mobile.
2 pdr HE was in production until 1939, when decided that it wasn't effective against tanks, and then discontinued.
Minor changes, easily reversed.
Very nice! Between this and Carden Lives TL, I am in Tank Heaven!
So, 2pdr and Boys ATR for the Infantry, and considerably earlier at that. If Wiki is to be believed, the 2pdr AT was developed and started production in 1936, here we are likely to see it come around 1935, so some more are going to be around ITTL. Same for the Boys, it is coming nearly 2 years earlier, and while Treasury is going to do its best to lose the war, there is going to be more of them for certain.
As far as the proposed 3pdr, while it is nice to see them planning for both AP and HE capability, could they perhaps go and take a look at the French 47mm SA35 gun? It is in/soon entering service, there would be no need for R&D, with most/all bugs ironed out. It also should have rather decent AP capability at 1000m, around 35-36mm if I am not misremembering what was mentioned on Blunted Sickle TLs.
Second, it is also nice to see that importance of infantry support is recognized in tank units, and I am very interested in seeing what are they going to do in that regard. While something like Bren/Universal Carrier is certain to make an appearance, it is simply too useful a vehicle not to, they really need a proper APC, to reduce infantry casualties in those last few hundred meters. Halftracks are perhaps the best choice in interwar period, and as an added bonus, the French Kegresse types should be in use by EMF, so they should be more then aware of it. It also has an advantage that a entire family of various AFVs could be built upon its chassis, from APC, Command, AT/AA, artillery tractor/carrier, mortar carrier... Though, unless I am mistaken, there were some issues in regards to track life, but maybe with tank development getting an earlier boost, issues in that (and general track life on British Tanks) regard could be avoided? Anyways, bother the lot over at Alt!AFV thread and they would be able to come up with something.
Lastly, are we going to see any further changes in regards to British infantry equipment? Maybe not changing the caliber or them going for a Semi-Auto rifle, but perhaps some bits of gear do get adopted earlier? The earlier mechanization may mean that Battledress (introduced in '37) comes in earlier, some more money may cause the MkIII (Turtle) Helmet to be adopted early, I dare even to assume that SMG is formally adopted by British Army before the War! Although I am hoping they avoid the Thompson SMG this time around, it was a bit too big and heavy for what it did (putting aside the cost!), something like Beretta 38 or Danuvia 39M (which they did test and seriously consider OTL) would be a much better choice.
Great Work @Astrodragon! Keep it up!
So, 2pdr and Boys ATR for the Infantry, and considerably earlier at that. If Wiki is to be believed, the 2pdr AT was developed and started production in 1936, here we are likely to see it come around 1935, so some more are going to be around ITTL. Same for the Boys, it is coming nearly 2 years earlier, and while Treasury is going to do its best to lose the war, there is going to be more of them for certain.
As far as the proposed 3pdr, while it is nice to see them planning for both AP and HE capability, could they perhaps go and take a look at the French 47mm SA35 gun? It is in/soon entering service, there would be no need for R&D, with most/all bugs ironed out. It also should have rather decent AP capability at 1000m, around 35-36mm if I am not misremembering what was mentioned on Blunted Sickle TLs.
Second, it is also nice to see that importance of infantry support is recognized in tank units, and I am very interested in seeing what are they going to do in that regard. While something like Bren/Universal Carrier is certain to make an appearance, it is simply too useful a vehicle not to, they really need a proper APC, to reduce infantry casualties in those last few hundred meters. Halftracks are perhaps the best choice in interwar period, and as an added bonus, the French Kegresse types should be in use by EMF, so they should be more then aware of it. It also has an advantage that a entire family of various AFVs could be built upon its chassis, from APC, Command, AT/AA, artillery tractor/carrier, mortar carrier... Though, unless I am mistaken, there were some issues in regards to track life, but maybe with tank development getting an earlier boost, issues in that (and general track life on British Tanks) regard could be avoided? Anyways, bother the lot over at Alt!AFV thread and they would be able to come up with something.
Lastly, are we going to see any further changes in regards to British infantry equipment? Maybe not changing the caliber or them going for a Semi-Auto rifle, but perhaps some bits of gear do get adopted earlier? The earlier mechanization may mean that Battledress (introduced in '37) comes in earlier, some more money may cause the MkIII (Turtle) Helmet to be adopted early, I dare even to assume that SMG is formally adopted by British Army before the War! Although I am hoping they avoid the Thompson SMG this time around, it was a bit too big and heavy for what it did (putting aside the cost!), something like Beretta 38 or Danuvia 39M (which they did test and seriously consider OTL) would be a much better choice.
Great Work @Astrodragon! Keep it up!
The EAF was using two types of half tracks, but they didn't seem to like them enough to keep them (but then the British army never seemed to like half tracks). When you build something to carry infantry is reasonable safety, it needs armour. It may well have been the the available half track designs simply couldnt handle the weight.
You aren't going to see massive changes to the infantry kit, because so far there are no drivers for that (other than the OTL ones).
And how dare you suggest the British license a French gun!
The 2pdr was in development in 34, so if in production in 36 test models and pre-production in 35 is probable. So far, nothing has changed with regard to equipment, but the butterflies are starting to flap over doctrine and tactical practice.
You aren't going to see massive changes to the infantry kit, because so far there are no drivers for that (other than the OTL ones).
And how dare you suggest the British license a French gun!
The 2pdr was in development in 34, so if in production in 36 test models and pre-production in 35 is probable. So far, nothing has changed with regard to equipment, but the butterflies are starting to flap over doctrine and tactical practice.
The Belgian 47mm is the one available in 1934. There was a French one, but in this period 37mm was the more common calibre. Also the m/v were lower, shooting holes in other tanks wasn't their main aim, and in any case a machine gun could come close to doing that. Borrowing the mounting, well, they weren't complicated. The one thing the British do need is a mounting strong enough to be towed behind a truck.
From what I understand, it seems that the main objection to Half-Tracks was the issues with track life, in other regards it seems that British quite liked them. It should also be noted that French did make several different models intended to be used as Artillery Tractors, so perhaps it would not be too hard to see one such vehicle being fitted with armour. Not to mention that the Kegresse tracks did see some improvements (I do believe) by 1930s, so track life might not be such a great issue ITTL.The EAF was using two types of half tracks, but they didn't seem to like them enough to keep them (but then the British army never seemed to like half tracks). When you build something to carry infantry is reasonable safety, it needs armour. It may well have been the the available half track designs simply couldnt handle the weight.
You aren't going to see massive changes to the infantry kit, because so far there are no drivers for that (other than the OTL ones).
And how dare you suggest the British license a French gun!
The 2pdr was in development in 34, so if in production in 36 test models and pre-production in 35 is probable. So far, nothing has changed with regard to equipment, but the butterflies are starting to flap over doctrine and tactical practice.
Ok then. I was thinking that earlier mechanization might cause some changes. I have seen claims that '37 Pattern Battledress was introduced due to it being more suitable uniform then older one, so it seemed resonable to me.
I had hoped that some pieces of gear might be availlable earlier and in greater quantities. I mean, at least the Boys should come around earlier, as its being talked about in late '34, while IOTL it only entered production in '37.
What is the issue in British licencing French made Gun? I mean, for all the pride in domestic product, it would be availlable earlier, and French military was considered one of the most prestigious militaries in the world, at the time. Cost could be an issue though, and while French could offer a good deal, perhaps in hopes of offering it elsewhere, if the new 3pdr can use the existing 3pdr ammo, that could be the main stumbling block. Since there would be existing stock and production machinery availlable, that would be seen as better financially...
There is no one thinking in 1934 about licensing a foreign 47mm mainly because their estimates show they can get away with a smaller gun. If it's going to the infantry, the lighter the better. When things change for tank protection, they will revisit the calibre. But if they were to license a foreign gun, the Czech 47mm (4,7cm KPÚV vz. 38), but design wasn't started until 1936. Given the close relationship with the Czech armaments industry, this would be a more likely license agreement.
The proposed 3pdr will actually be quite close to this in spec, although I believe the Czech shells were better.
The proposed 3pdr will actually be quite close to this in spec, although I believe the Czech shells were better.
Vickers might not license a foreign design, but the vz.38 and 47/32 or even better the 47/40 should give a good indication of how their proposed gun could perform.
Edited to add - the vz.38 was a better antitank gun, the 47/32 and 47/40 had a better HE shell.
Edited to add - the vz.38 was a better antitank gun, the 47/32 and 47/40 had a better HE shell.
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No, in cavalry horses. The Walers were superb stock and cavalry mounds.For use in curry?
Errr, yes it could. The mount was light enough to be man towed when necessary. It was actually an excellent mount, much better than two wheels and a set of trails.
2 Pdr HE was in production far longer than that. It was used in the British Armoured car units 1944-45 in NW Europe. The problem was the 2 Pdr had been fitted with the "Little John Adapter" and that prevented it being used. So, several armoured cars (in each troop) had the Little John removed to allow the use of HE. The Australian Army developed it's own 2 Pdr HE round. It was, unlike the British one, base fused and it worked very well against Japanese bunkers.
marathag
Banned
two guys can move 7-800 pounds with out much trouble. 1800, you just need more guys.
That, and this
The EAF considers its needs
Spring 1935, Salisbury Plain, 1st Infantry Division
"Well, Sergeant, how did you find your new wooden wonder?"
Sergeant Smyth gave his lieutenant a grin as he nodded at the men currently struggling to connect the metal and wooden mockup of an anti-tank gun to their truck.
"Oh, it's a bitch to carry, Sir, it weighs half a ton after all. And it's an awful lashup! But according to the umpires we killed two of those light tanks with it when they came up to annoy us, which makes lugging it around worthwhile."
"Ah, so you'd like a real one, Sergeant?"
"Very much so, Sir! Being able to stop those damn tanks when they try and overrun us makes it all worthwhile. I hear B Company got one of their heavy tanks with one as well, when it ran into our minefields."
The lieutenant smiled as he watched the cursing men finish with the gun. That didn't worry him at all, it was the sort of cursing that showed that the men were in good spirits and indulging in the normal routine of swearing at the job while getting on with it. They were in better spirits this time than after last Autumn's exercise, being able to hit back had done wonders. He wondered how long it would be before they would actually get a real anti-tank gun for the company.
******************
August 1935, Royal Tank Corps
General Lindsay looked around at his senior officers, none of whom were looking terribly cheerful.
"So, gentlemen, let's have your thoughts on the exercise results."
Colonel Pile was the first to speak.
"Well Sir. I'm afraid that to a considerable extent we did poorly. No way to get around that. In the first exercise, they used mines again, as well as those mocked-up light guns, and took a heavy toll on the light tanks. As a result we never really managed to grab the choke points we wanted - we only got one of the five we had gone for - and while we managed to exploit that successfully, on its own it wasn't enough. Thanks to the minefields, they even managed to take some of our mediums in the flank, and the umpired adjudged we'd lost some of them too. In the second phase, we did better. We still had issues getting past them, but this time we held the lights back as soon as they got shot at, so at least we didn't lose as many. Once we had a breakthrough, we used the lights to exploit it. That worked well, except at one point where some clever bugger had left an anti-tank gun with some of the rear echelon, and it took out a couple of the lights before we overrun them.
We also tried using some armoured cars in place of light tanks as one of the exploitation groups. That actually worked better than I'd expected. They did have issues, a few times they got stuck in ground the lights could handle, but they were faster and we didn't get as many breakdowns. Their speed did let them get deeper and cause more chaos, but the cars we have aren't good enough to do the job we need properly."
Lindsay nodded. "Thank you Frederick, that was basically my thinking as well. It's a blow that they seem to have learned to upset our exploitation tactics, but I don't want to abandon them. When they work, they are devastatingly effective at a low cost. What we need to do is to work out how to make them work against decent opposition."
Major Martel coughed politely.
"I have had some ideas, Sir, and we've discussed some of them. May I present them?"
"Of course you may, that's what this meeting is about. Let's hear them and we can see how they stand up."
"Thank you Sir. Well, we basically have two options. Either abandon our tactics of exploiting a weak spot and then attacking the enemy in the rear, or go up against them like a bull at a gate. Obviously the first one is much better, but against decent opposition, where we can't go around them and they aren't silly enough to leave holes in their defence, we may need to emulate the bull, at least in part."
Lindsay gave his subordinate a thoughtful look. "Go on, then. Which part of the bull do we need?"
A chuckle ran through the group, and Martel continued.
"I think we need to train our men to do two things. First, as before, exploit a weakness. It's what wins the battles, and after all not every opponent will be as effective as the 1st Division was, or have settled in a position we can't outflank. Second though, when we can't do that we need to attack them, hold and overwhelm them - not overall, but in enough places we can break through and exploit."
"That's a logical conclusion, but one problem remains - how do we overwhelm them when it costs so many tanks?"
"We talked about that, Sir. There are a number of issues. First, the light tanks are useless except for the reconnaissance and exploitation phases. I'm not even sure if they are ideal for that, a good heavy armoured car would seem just as suitable, except in very poor terrain. Second, our tanks aren't fast enough or protected well enough. A faster medium will close up faster, allowing them less time to coordinate their defence and strengthen the areas we are attacking. A tougher tank will allow us to break them locally without suffering too many casualties. Now ideally we want a tank that can be both these things, but this may not be possible at the moment. So one idea is we split the Brigade into a medium and heavy component. The heavies go in and break the defence, then the mediums carry through and exploit. The mediums need enough armour to at last have a chance against the new guns - it looks like we'll need an inch or so of armour - and the heavies probably twice that. Of course, either tank can do some of both jobs, so the heavy needs a reasonable speed, and the medium some decent protection. Looking at the exercise results, this would have resulted in at least two more penetrations, and with far less losses."
"So, we need new tanks? How about the light tanks?"
Martel shrugged. "As expected, the lights have no part in an attack, their role needs to be exploitation. I'd like to see a design for a good heavy armoured car as well, we aren't the only force that could use one, and it might be easier to get them for other divisions than tanks. It's not just the tanks, though. What the defence showed was that we need infantry as well as tanks to break down the opposition. An all tank force simply won't handle it. We need men on foot to help, then they can hold the opening while our faster elements stream though." He grimaced. "We also need a way to do something about mines. It looks like everyone's forgotten how effective they could be in the Great War, more Sappers are definitely needed. And the men need to be mobile. Our usual troops are mounted on half tracks and Morrises, we borrowed some Dragon artillery tractors and got the additional infantry as mobile. It's not just about the men at the front, we need to get support and supplies up, and lorries just wont do it in an operation. Oh, and we need more Birch guns. If we are going to make a hole and exploit it, speed is still a very important thing, and for this type of work they are a lot faster. Towed guns are useful, but better for defence than attack. Basically while the tanks are the cutting edge of our attack, the rest of our force needs to be mobile and if possible protected against fire. If not as well as the mediums, at least against machine guns and similar light stuff. That would also cut down infantry casualties, they wouldn't have to cover so much ground under fire, and that not only saves lived but effectively gives us more infantry."
"We're going to have to get new equipment, that won't make the Treasury happy."
"Nothing we do makes them happy."
Lindsay chuckled. "True. So, your conclusions are logical. Now I want you to work out the specifications for what we need, and check that, with the new kit, we could have done the job properly. Then we'll need to talk to Vickers and Woolwich again.
*********************
"Well, Sergeant, how did you find your new wooden wonder?"
Sergeant Smyth gave his lieutenant a grin as he nodded at the men currently struggling to connect the metal and wooden mockup of an anti-tank gun to their truck.
"Oh, it's a bitch to carry, Sir, it weighs half a ton after all. And it's an awful lashup! But according to the umpires we killed two of those light tanks with it when they came up to annoy us, which makes lugging it around worthwhile."
"Ah, so you'd like a real one, Sergeant?"
"Very much so, Sir! Being able to stop those damn tanks when they try and overrun us makes it all worthwhile. I hear B Company got one of their heavy tanks with one as well, when it ran into our minefields."
The lieutenant smiled as he watched the cursing men finish with the gun. That didn't worry him at all, it was the sort of cursing that showed that the men were in good spirits and indulging in the normal routine of swearing at the job while getting on with it. They were in better spirits this time than after last Autumn's exercise, being able to hit back had done wonders. He wondered how long it would be before they would actually get a real anti-tank gun for the company.
******************
August 1935, Royal Tank Corps
General Lindsay looked around at his senior officers, none of whom were looking terribly cheerful.
"So, gentlemen, let's have your thoughts on the exercise results."
Colonel Pile was the first to speak.
"Well Sir. I'm afraid that to a considerable extent we did poorly. No way to get around that. In the first exercise, they used mines again, as well as those mocked-up light guns, and took a heavy toll on the light tanks. As a result we never really managed to grab the choke points we wanted - we only got one of the five we had gone for - and while we managed to exploit that successfully, on its own it wasn't enough. Thanks to the minefields, they even managed to take some of our mediums in the flank, and the umpired adjudged we'd lost some of them too. In the second phase, we did better. We still had issues getting past them, but this time we held the lights back as soon as they got shot at, so at least we didn't lose as many. Once we had a breakthrough, we used the lights to exploit it. That worked well, except at one point where some clever bugger had left an anti-tank gun with some of the rear echelon, and it took out a couple of the lights before we overrun them.
We also tried using some armoured cars in place of light tanks as one of the exploitation groups. That actually worked better than I'd expected. They did have issues, a few times they got stuck in ground the lights could handle, but they were faster and we didn't get as many breakdowns. Their speed did let them get deeper and cause more chaos, but the cars we have aren't good enough to do the job we need properly."
Lindsay nodded. "Thank you Frederick, that was basically my thinking as well. It's a blow that they seem to have learned to upset our exploitation tactics, but I don't want to abandon them. When they work, they are devastatingly effective at a low cost. What we need to do is to work out how to make them work against decent opposition."
Major Martel coughed politely.
"I have had some ideas, Sir, and we've discussed some of them. May I present them?"
"Of course you may, that's what this meeting is about. Let's hear them and we can see how they stand up."
"Thank you Sir. Well, we basically have two options. Either abandon our tactics of exploiting a weak spot and then attacking the enemy in the rear, or go up against them like a bull at a gate. Obviously the first one is much better, but against decent opposition, where we can't go around them and they aren't silly enough to leave holes in their defence, we may need to emulate the bull, at least in part."
Lindsay gave his subordinate a thoughtful look. "Go on, then. Which part of the bull do we need?"
A chuckle ran through the group, and Martel continued.
"I think we need to train our men to do two things. First, as before, exploit a weakness. It's what wins the battles, and after all not every opponent will be as effective as the 1st Division was, or have settled in a position we can't outflank. Second though, when we can't do that we need to attack them, hold and overwhelm them - not overall, but in enough places we can break through and exploit."
"That's a logical conclusion, but one problem remains - how do we overwhelm them when it costs so many tanks?"
"We talked about that, Sir. There are a number of issues. First, the light tanks are useless except for the reconnaissance and exploitation phases. I'm not even sure if they are ideal for that, a good heavy armoured car would seem just as suitable, except in very poor terrain. Second, our tanks aren't fast enough or protected well enough. A faster medium will close up faster, allowing them less time to coordinate their defence and strengthen the areas we are attacking. A tougher tank will allow us to break them locally without suffering too many casualties. Now ideally we want a tank that can be both these things, but this may not be possible at the moment. So one idea is we split the Brigade into a medium and heavy component. The heavies go in and break the defence, then the mediums carry through and exploit. The mediums need enough armour to at last have a chance against the new guns - it looks like we'll need an inch or so of armour - and the heavies probably twice that. Of course, either tank can do some of both jobs, so the heavy needs a reasonable speed, and the medium some decent protection. Looking at the exercise results, this would have resulted in at least two more penetrations, and with far less losses."
"So, we need new tanks? How about the light tanks?"
Martel shrugged. "As expected, the lights have no part in an attack, their role needs to be exploitation. I'd like to see a design for a good heavy armoured car as well, we aren't the only force that could use one, and it might be easier to get them for other divisions than tanks. It's not just the tanks, though. What the defence showed was that we need infantry as well as tanks to break down the opposition. An all tank force simply won't handle it. We need men on foot to help, then they can hold the opening while our faster elements stream though." He grimaced. "We also need a way to do something about mines. It looks like everyone's forgotten how effective they could be in the Great War, more Sappers are definitely needed. And the men need to be mobile. Our usual troops are mounted on half tracks and Morrises, we borrowed some Dragon artillery tractors and got the additional infantry as mobile. It's not just about the men at the front, we need to get support and supplies up, and lorries just wont do it in an operation. Oh, and we need more Birch guns. If we are going to make a hole and exploit it, speed is still a very important thing, and for this type of work they are a lot faster. Towed guns are useful, but better for defence than attack. Basically while the tanks are the cutting edge of our attack, the rest of our force needs to be mobile and if possible protected against fire. If not as well as the mediums, at least against machine guns and similar light stuff. That would also cut down infantry casualties, they wouldn't have to cover so much ground under fire, and that not only saves lived but effectively gives us more infantry."
"We're going to have to get new equipment, that won't make the Treasury happy."
"Nothing we do makes them happy."
Lindsay chuckled. "True. So, your conclusions are logical. Now I want you to work out the specifications for what we need, and check that, with the new kit, we could have done the job properly. Then we'll need to talk to Vickers and Woolwich again.
*********************
Nice!
So, they seem to be learning some valuable lessons about combined arms, though it will be very interesting to see what happens in regards to tanks. I had hoped that they would somehow come up with the Universal Tank, a single design capable of doing all, instead of splitting into Cruiser and Infantry as it seems that they are going to do.
Though, now I can not wait to see what tanks they decide they want, what tanks Vickers comes up with, and what the Treasury actually allows them to get. Not to mention ACs, as the role of exploitation could be assigned to them, they are going to need something suitable, at least better armed and perhaps better armoured then Light Tanks they are to replace. At the very least something like Humber or Daimler ACs (with 3pdr) or being rather optimistic, something along the lines of AEC AC.
Great Work, keep it up!
So, they seem to be learning some valuable lessons about combined arms, though it will be very interesting to see what happens in regards to tanks. I had hoped that they would somehow come up with the Universal Tank, a single design capable of doing all, instead of splitting into Cruiser and Infantry as it seems that they are going to do.
Though, now I can not wait to see what tanks they decide they want, what tanks Vickers comes up with, and what the Treasury actually allows them to get. Not to mention ACs, as the role of exploitation could be assigned to them, they are going to need something suitable, at least better armed and perhaps better armoured then Light Tanks they are to replace. At the very least something like Humber or Daimler ACs (with 3pdr) or being rather optimistic, something along the lines of AEC AC.
Great Work, keep it up!