The Forge of Weyland
- Thread starter Astrodragon
- Start date
Provided that you're fitting for, but not with, tastebuds
Why do you think the British army carried so much curry powder around with it?
Rip off Tabasco is standard issue along with curry powder in all ration packs.
Must not comment on 24 hour ration pack....must not... must resist
he was chummy with uncle Joe as well......but then they were all dictators so......
marathag
Banned
And Ford UK and Ford France, those bastions of One Man Rule
Henry put in as large a plant in any country as he could, with only the Moose in Italy resisting the Deals that Ford offered.
NotBigBrother
Monthly Donor
GAZ in Nizhniy Novgorod, Russia was built in 30's by Ford.And Ford UK and Ford France, those bastions of One Man Rule
Henry put in as large a plant in any country as he could, with only the Moose in Italy resisting the Deals that Ford offered.
24 May 1040
24th May 1940
Britain
An urgent meeting is convened at the Air Ministry to discuss what can be done to help the Dutch against large city-targeting air raids. After considerable discussion, the conclusion is 'not much at the moment'. The problem is twofold; first the RAF is short of fighters, and second they don't have the range for proper interception unless based in Holland.
There are more airfields available, but they will cut into the number of squadrons available to defend Britain and the BEF. Dowding is worried about what he sees as the continuing reduction in the fighters allocated to his Groups in order to reinforce the continental effort, and while he agrees that the troops must be defended, adding another large commitment such as Holland would drain too much strength away. The problem is made worse by the lack of a proper air defence system in Holland; while an AMES radar set is set up, it lacks the comprehensive control system Fighter Command enjoys in Britain, and setting one up will take more than a few days.
All that can be done at the moment is to replace the fighters lost in yesterdays actions, and ready an additional squadron for transport. The Navy is prepared to deliver the men and supplies by a night convoy, given 24 hours notice. It has been suggested that drop tanks, as used by aircraft in the Spanish Civil War, would allow planes based in the South-East of England to intervene (given sufficient warning), but there is a lack of such tanks. A program will be started immediately to investigate and solve this issue, but even with a high priority it will take weeks. As long as activity in the north of Belgium remains light, two more squadrons can be tasked for intervention from their bases in Northern Belgium, but there are concerns that the practicality of getting sufficient warning means that at best they can attack a raid after it has bombed, which is far from ideal.
Brazil
The President of Panama expressed support for the Dominican Republic in terms of the 8 Mar 1940 incident where a Canadian destroyer attacked German freighter Hannover in Dominic Republic's territorial waters. He called for the Chairman of the Inter-American Neutrality Committee in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil to investigate this violation of the Pan-American Neutrality Zone.
Holland
Much of the day is spent putting out fires in The Hague and digging through the rubble for survivors. Luckily the Luftwaffe is absent today - they are expecting to be supporting the Army's assault on Antwerp tomorrow - but as the full reports of the devastation are gathered it makes grim reading for the Dutch government. It is clear that without a large increase in fighters, as well as the ability to control them, that the Luftwaffe can conduct such raids if not with impunity, at least with acceptable losses to them. While the Dutch can continue to evacuate the major urban areas, this only reduces the possible deaths, not the damage done by such raids.
While again the international community has condemned the attacks on civilians, especially in the USA, there has been no actual action to back up the rhetoric. Indeed, it's hard to see what can be done in a short time. Britain and France have been asked urgently for more fighters, and the RAF has promised additional squadrons (while remaining rather vague as to how many and when they will actually arrive), while the French are willing to help, but need to get their own squadrons in order first.
Antwerp
German preparations for their new attack are now complete. XXVI Corps will spearhead the attack south of the city, the idea being to tie down the Belgian troops and then allow 9th Panzer to cut through and break into their rear. If the Belgians fall back, Antwerp will be isolated and can be taken by the infantry divisions following. If not, 9th Panzer will cut the defence in two and allow the forces south of the city to be defeated in detail.
To aid the attack, two more infantry divisions will attack to the north, the aim being to tie down the three French divisions supporting the Belgians. Antwerp itself will be left alone for the first day, while there are strong Belgian Army forces holding the city, they are thought to have little transport and be unable to intervene rapidly.
The Luftwaffe will commence heavy and concentrated attacks on the southern sector after dawn, and the artillery barrage in all sectors will commence at 0300.
Further diversionary actions will complement the attack. First, a series of minor probing attacks will take place along the Dyle Line to tie down the British divisions holding it, and to hold their reserve in place. Secondly a more substantial attack will go in against 1st Army, again led by the infantry, but this time with 3rd and 4th Panzer ready to exploit any gaps or breakthroughs.
Two more panzer divisions are on their way;1st Panzer division will be in place to support an attack in the north on the 26th, and 2nd Panzer will be available to the attack on 1st Army on the same day.
France
The relative lull in the air action over the last week has allowed the French Air Force to get a number of additional squadrons, mainly fighters, into the front line. It has turned out that some of the reason for the earlier lack was due to poor availability and lack of spares or critical supplies, and fixing this will take some time. As a temporary solution, some units - those with older aircraft or less-experienced crews - have been stripped to get the maximum number of squadrons available. While the pause has been welcome, it is seen as just a pause, and yesterdays attack on The Hague has shown that the Luftwaffe is as dangerous as ever.
British V Corps is busy getting its men and equipment together after being transported across the Channel. There is concern about the lack of training at the Corps level, and the hope is that there will be time for a training program to give the necessary experience. The first lorries and transporters will head out tomorrow for Lille, where they will concentrate as part of the reserve for the Belgian Army and the BEF.
Britain
An urgent meeting is convened at the Air Ministry to discuss what can be done to help the Dutch against large city-targeting air raids. After considerable discussion, the conclusion is 'not much at the moment'. The problem is twofold; first the RAF is short of fighters, and second they don't have the range for proper interception unless based in Holland.
There are more airfields available, but they will cut into the number of squadrons available to defend Britain and the BEF. Dowding is worried about what he sees as the continuing reduction in the fighters allocated to his Groups in order to reinforce the continental effort, and while he agrees that the troops must be defended, adding another large commitment such as Holland would drain too much strength away. The problem is made worse by the lack of a proper air defence system in Holland; while an AMES radar set is set up, it lacks the comprehensive control system Fighter Command enjoys in Britain, and setting one up will take more than a few days.
All that can be done at the moment is to replace the fighters lost in yesterdays actions, and ready an additional squadron for transport. The Navy is prepared to deliver the men and supplies by a night convoy, given 24 hours notice. It has been suggested that drop tanks, as used by aircraft in the Spanish Civil War, would allow planes based in the South-East of England to intervene (given sufficient warning), but there is a lack of such tanks. A program will be started immediately to investigate and solve this issue, but even with a high priority it will take weeks. As long as activity in the north of Belgium remains light, two more squadrons can be tasked for intervention from their bases in Northern Belgium, but there are concerns that the practicality of getting sufficient warning means that at best they can attack a raid after it has bombed, which is far from ideal.
Brazil
The President of Panama expressed support for the Dominican Republic in terms of the 8 Mar 1940 incident where a Canadian destroyer attacked German freighter Hannover in Dominic Republic's territorial waters. He called for the Chairman of the Inter-American Neutrality Committee in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil to investigate this violation of the Pan-American Neutrality Zone.
Holland
Much of the day is spent putting out fires in The Hague and digging through the rubble for survivors. Luckily the Luftwaffe is absent today - they are expecting to be supporting the Army's assault on Antwerp tomorrow - but as the full reports of the devastation are gathered it makes grim reading for the Dutch government. It is clear that without a large increase in fighters, as well as the ability to control them, that the Luftwaffe can conduct such raids if not with impunity, at least with acceptable losses to them. While the Dutch can continue to evacuate the major urban areas, this only reduces the possible deaths, not the damage done by such raids.
While again the international community has condemned the attacks on civilians, especially in the USA, there has been no actual action to back up the rhetoric. Indeed, it's hard to see what can be done in a short time. Britain and France have been asked urgently for more fighters, and the RAF has promised additional squadrons (while remaining rather vague as to how many and when they will actually arrive), while the French are willing to help, but need to get their own squadrons in order first.
Antwerp
German preparations for their new attack are now complete. XXVI Corps will spearhead the attack south of the city, the idea being to tie down the Belgian troops and then allow 9th Panzer to cut through and break into their rear. If the Belgians fall back, Antwerp will be isolated and can be taken by the infantry divisions following. If not, 9th Panzer will cut the defence in two and allow the forces south of the city to be defeated in detail.
To aid the attack, two more infantry divisions will attack to the north, the aim being to tie down the three French divisions supporting the Belgians. Antwerp itself will be left alone for the first day, while there are strong Belgian Army forces holding the city, they are thought to have little transport and be unable to intervene rapidly.
The Luftwaffe will commence heavy and concentrated attacks on the southern sector after dawn, and the artillery barrage in all sectors will commence at 0300.
Further diversionary actions will complement the attack. First, a series of minor probing attacks will take place along the Dyle Line to tie down the British divisions holding it, and to hold their reserve in place. Secondly a more substantial attack will go in against 1st Army, again led by the infantry, but this time with 3rd and 4th Panzer ready to exploit any gaps or breakthroughs.
Two more panzer divisions are on their way;1st Panzer division will be in place to support an attack in the north on the 26th, and 2nd Panzer will be available to the attack on 1st Army on the same day.
France
The relative lull in the air action over the last week has allowed the French Air Force to get a number of additional squadrons, mainly fighters, into the front line. It has turned out that some of the reason for the earlier lack was due to poor availability and lack of spares or critical supplies, and fixing this will take some time. As a temporary solution, some units - those with older aircraft or less-experienced crews - have been stripped to get the maximum number of squadrons available. While the pause has been welcome, it is seen as just a pause, and yesterdays attack on The Hague has shown that the Luftwaffe is as dangerous as ever.
British V Corps is busy getting its men and equipment together after being transported across the Channel. There is concern about the lack of training at the Corps level, and the hope is that there will be time for a training program to give the necessary experience. The first lorries and transporters will head out tomorrow for Lille, where they will concentrate as part of the reserve for the Belgian Army and the BEF.
But not quickly. and to limited effect. There is the whole passage of the lines things - so where are the horses, is it worth the losses to haul one set of artillery kit and associated wires, switchboards etc out then put in another regiment and all its kit, bearing n mind that phone wire is always scarce and those thieving Thuringian Bastards in the replacement div cannot be trusted to actually hand over their stocks, and they have the old model phones you cant get spares for anymore, probably don't feed the horses anyway. They have some not entirely buggered about first class divs in Army Group Reserve if they can be prised from senescent hands of Von Rundstedt.
But mainly because 90% of any casualties suffered to date will be in the infantry, and mainly in the leaders and most of the rest in specialists that have to expose themselves, FOO, engineers, linemen. And the replacements will not be trained men.
This is not a fight between a highly trained German army and inferior French conscripts. Its to two armies composed of Active and well trained divisions, Cat A reserves ( or Active army Welle 1-2 maybe 3 divs) and Cat B reserves Welle 4+ divisions most of which have be led and trained by WW1 veterans and if anything the Franco Belgian reserves started ( 9-10 months ago) in a better state than the Germans.
When they eventually go up against the young physically fit trained French and Belgians who will have had several more days to dig in build bunkers, place mines, lay wire, register fire and so forth. Without tanks its tired poorly trained conscripts - filled with national socialist fanaticism - Vs tired poorly trained conscripts armed with wool shirts, bolt action rifles and machine guns in a trench with overhead cover and barbed wire in front.
Also to put context on the Hague raid. The LW starts the campaign on 10 May with about 1200 fighters and 1500 bombers ( of which at least 300 were Stuka and a lot not on the western front ( as at 10 May around 120 He111 are in Norway and about the same in coastal strike units) and 1100 Me109, 250 Me 110 at start, By 17 August - i.e. after BoF so with losses but also a stand down they had 960 twin engined bomber on hand.
This is suspiciously close to the at start numbers but with 3 months more production but whatever say 900 twin engined bombers available for ops but this probably an overestimate. Unless Norway is stripped 800 on the western front of which 130 were Ju88 which in May were taken off ops as being too dangerous to fly ( partly a design issue partly a training issue for crews.) so 630 at most
OTL around now the actual flyable numbers would be 50-60% of total but if the LW had stood down the bomber force for several days the number would rise a lot. Ofc you can't do that for the fighter force without allowing the AdA and RAF freedom to do whatever it likes - see above on the passage of the lines and even if its limited to the bomber force it means no attacks on allied airfields, or positions in the interim and a pause to sort out the air defence system somewhat - dedicated lines from observation centres to the fighter controllers, fighter controllers for that matter.
So I think a 300 plane raid is maximum effort, with either half or all of the available bomber force deployed with a loss rate of 6% ( actually higher probably closer to 12% of the force due to damaged aircraft having forced landings or being u/s after a safe landing etc and certainly more than that over time as 54% of all LW losses were non combat.)
We know the maths on that, its the same as the rate for the Halifax force in 43-44 and translates into a survival rate of 16% over 30 ops.
The added problem is the LW had stripped many german cities of FLAK cover to provide the field army with 88s, which they may not be that keen to give back as its the only thing that can stop the British and French armour. So 300 planes bomb the Hague annoy everyone and it demands a response.
Aachen is a major rail hub, and in range of the 500 or so aircraft of Bomber command with a fighter escort staging from French and Belgian airfields. and the AdA. Burn it.
So for the moment all the Dutch can do is dig in and hold on ? Tough times for Holland . Hopefully they will be able to hit back at the Germans in the future. They will certainly have some scores to settle.
300 bombers isn't quite a maximum force, but its certainly a heavy one.
Of course, that was the idea - to convince the Dutch in particular that the Luftwaffe can do this sort of attack whenever it pleases. The rest of the level bombers, the dive bombers and most of the fighters are being prepared for the attacks around Antwerp.
Of course, that was the idea - to convince the Dutch in particular that the Luftwaffe can do this sort of attack whenever it pleases. The rest of the level bombers, the dive bombers and most of the fighters are being prepared for the attacks around Antwerp.
Derek Pullem
Donor
And with the lines now mostly static, the opportunity for French and British raids on German troop concentrations increases. As well as transport and logistic targets (bridges over the Rhine and in Holland?)
Given the very heavy losses so far, the ability to respond is limited, and will likely only be in response to serious need.
This will improve, but it will take time.
Derek Pullem
Donor
As Gannt pointed out, Bomber Command is relatively lightly engaged (must have stopped dropping toilet paper by now
). The French are in a dreadful state, mainly because of a lack of serviceable aircraft. I believe this was being remedied OTL quite quickly by end May-June as the Luftwaffe casualty list later on proved.