The Forge of Weyland

So apart from the arrival of 1st Armoured Division, the only major changes from the OTL BEF are that 5th Division as been grouped with 1st Armoured in a formal reserve Corps (and will get a third, Canadian, brigade when it's ready) and 51st Division has been retrieved from Saarforce and is in Flanders with the rest of the BEF, correct?

A quick check of Wikipedia suggests that the BEF also had two "light armoured reconnaissance brigades" with armoured cars/light tanks - though they seem to have been broken up into regiments and assigned to infantry divisions as reconnaissance units. Is this still the case TTL, and do you have an idea what vehicles they'd be using (can't remember if the new armoured car designs are in service yet)?
 
No, 5th Division has its 3 brigades, the Canadian brigade is in Norway.
In order to form IV Corps, 51st never went to the Saar. although sending British troops there is planned for when more are available.
After the results of training exercises, it was decided to keep the cavalry with the divisions, as they are the reconnaissance element for them anyway. They have the new armoured cars, they've been around a while now and the BEF had priority for them.
 
The 25lb is a dead end unless you are talking about an entirely new gun, which is not the same as the 25Lb gun/howitzer. The 25lb as a round is 88x292mm with a case diameter of 105mm. The 18lb based on the WW1 guns ammo is 84mm x 295 x 103mm. To make either more powerful the easy way is to increase the length of the round and filling. You can do that with either but in production terms there is no point doing it for the 25lb Gun/How round, for a tank round you now have to make it fixed ammo with a poured filling as opposed to a bagged one. And you end up with basically the same performance as a tank gun (and the same issues of fitting it in the turret because of the longer recoil stroke) but for one you can use the existing tooling for the 18lb and its ammo.

At some point in the process you run into the ergonomics of handling a long round in a confined space so to up the power again you have to make the case fatter but as far as possible keep the same ammunition. Which is what the Germans did going to the 75mm L70. Its 75x 640x122 and fires the Pzgr 39 - with bigger driving bands to make it the 39/42 but that's the only change

For the brits if you want a fatter round you take existing manufacture and tip it with an AT round. You can do this in 88mm or 84mm but if you have developed a set of ammo for the 84mm it makes sense to mate the existing warhead with the existing 3.7'' case and you get an 84mm x 618mm x 147mm which is the 20lb.

Once the UK has several hundred or thousand 18lb guns there is no logic in looking at other calibres until you step up the case width the performance differences are so marginal as to make the retooling not worthwhile. The progression is the same as the German from L24 - L48 on their 75mm with the advantage that the ammo would have been derated from the original to make the short 18 work.
 
"In addition to the fighting formations, three divisions - the 12th, 23rd and 46th - would be sent over. These second-line divisions would be used for pioneer duties, building airfields, depots and other infrastructure to be used by the growing BEF. Only the infantry and engineers were sent, with a skeletal HQ organisation and minimal service units.

There was no intention of using these formed but untrained units in combat. While every man did have a rifle, barely half had even fired one, and they had only 1/3 of their complement of LMG's, and no mortars or carriers. The officers were not even generally issued with pistols or compasses. The divisions arrived in the second half of April, with the stipulation that one battalion in each Brigade would train while the other two worked."

Was this OTL or a butterfly?
 

perfectgeneral

Donor
Monthly Donor
That is a little heavier at 16lb AT and yet lighter at 9.3kg (20.5 lb) HE than the British 25 pdr. A 14lb AT shell might come out a bit hot (1000m/s+) so a 17lb AT round to stop the gun lining wearing out after 100 firings (roughly 850-900m/s)?
@marathag #2,285

Using that penetration table (Krupp) gives 113mm for a 1000m/s 6.5Kg and 105mm-111mm for a 850-900m/s 7.727Kg shell.
Tear at the lining with 1000m/s and the 17lb/7.727Kg shell penetrates 124mm by that table. The 25lb HE shell does what it always did. I think the AT shell might be too short to stabilise if only 6.5kg idk.
 
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The solution reached is to use a brigade from the 1st Canadian Division, This is an infantry formation currently forming in the UK, and it was expected to be able to deploy it to France in about three months. The Division is short of some of its support troops and artillery, and hasn't had any real training as a division. However it is practical to form one fully equipped infantry brigade. The issues are more political than logistical - Canada has insisted that its formation fight as much as possible as complete units, and under their own commanders. Of course the British Army would have been happy to use the full division if it had been ready. As it wasn't, after some discussions the Canadian government agreed to its use provided that when the rest of the division was ready it would be withdrawn and the 1st Canadian Division would be deployed as a unit. This was quite acceptable to the British, as this was their long term aim anyway. It was also seen as a way of getting the Canadians valuable combat experience, and it was felt that they would be well suited to the conditions in Norway.

That has the potential for some interesting butterflies. In OTL the main reason the Canadian division was sent to Sicily (over the strong objections of the army commander at this "splitting" of his force) was political pressure to get Canadians involved in combat (pay no attention to the Dieppe behind the curtain) which overcame the casualty averse nature of the government (casualties need replacements which if bad enough might lead to the dreaded sending of conscripts overseas, which did happen in 1945)

This would satisfy all points, a limited commitment with probably manageable casualties but a tangible commitment that can hopefully score points with the Brits. Depending of course on what happens in France.
 
That has the potential for some interesting butterflies. In OTL the main reason the Canadian division was sent to Sicily (over the strong objections of the army commander at this "splitting" of his force) was political pressure to get Canadians involved in combat (pay no attention to the Dieppe behind the curtain) which overcame the casualty averse nature of the government (casualties need replacements which if bad enough might lead to the dreaded sending of conscripts overseas, which did happen in 1945)

This would satisfy all points, a limited commitment with probably manageable casualties but a tangible commitment that can hopefully score points with the Brits. Depending of course on what happens in France.
Yes.
There's a slightly hidden agenda here. While the Canadians are good troops, the nco's and officers lack battle experience. This is a good way of getting them some, and then when later they go back to the Division as promised, this can be spread around.
 

Driftless

Donor
Even by Churchill's own later assessment, the British troops sent to Narvik area were neither trained nor equipped to fight in deep snow. So, whoever goes will literally be up to their backside in it.... The French were able to send an Alpine unit, and I believe the Poles were mountain troops as well. The Norwegians who had been up near the border on the 9th were capable. The local ground commander left behind in Narvik surrendered without firing a shot.
 
The British will probably think the Canadians are used to the snow. Forgetting most of them probably come from cities.
At least they will be used to working in the cold
 
Fall Gelb 1
Operation Fall Gelb

3rd May 1940


Hitler postpones X-day, the start of the offensive, until the 6th due to poor weather. Good weather is deemed essential for the planed air landings and to maximise Luftwaffe support of the ground troops.

6th May 1940

X-Day is delayed again, until the 10th May.

10th May 1940

At 21:00 on 9 May, the code word Danzig was relayed to all German army divisions, beginning operation Fall Gelb. Security for the operation was so strict that many officers, due to the constant delays, were actually away from their units when the order was sent.

Some time after midnight a French reconnaissance aircraft operating between the French border and Düsseldorf spotted the headlights of long columns of vehicles heading westward. However it took hours before higher authority was warned of this, by which time other actions had shown the defenders what was about to happen.

At around 3am, in advance of the general attack, a sabotage unit of sixty-four men in five parties crossed the frontier between Roermond and Maastricht. Three parties wore Dutch steel helmets and great-coats over their German uniforms; the other two wore fitters' and mechanics' overalls. Their aim was to capture various bridges, but the bridge guards succeeded in blowing most of those attack


The fortress of Eben Emael was located between Liege and Maastricht, and was seen as the key to the defence of Belgium from a German attack across the narrow belt of Dutch territory in the region. Constructed between 1931–1935, it was reputed to be impregnable and was at the time the largest fortification in the world. The fortifications mounted 120 mm and 75 mm guns, giving the ability to bombard targets across a wide area of the eastern Liège region. It was expected that the fort would at least delay any German attack in the area with this artillery, and was expected to hold for 5-7 days, buying the Belgian Army time to mobilise and dig in.

The defensive use of the fortress was equally obvious to the Germans, who had implemented a detailed and complicated plan of attack using an airborne force.

At 0330 forty-one Junkers 52 transports had taken off from the airfields of Butzweilerhof and Ostheim on opposite banks of the Rhine near Cologne. They had set course westwards in a long stream, guided by a line of flashing navigational beacons stretching all the way to Aachen. Assault Group Koch had been training for six months under the tightest security, The group's 41 gliders were divided into four parts, each with a different objective.

The task of capturing Eben Emael was assigned eleven gliders carrying eighty-five men. The second Assault Detachment, ninety-six men in eleven gliders, was to capture the bridge over the Maas at Vroenhoven and prevent its destruction by the defenders. The third Assault Detachment, with ninety-two men in nine gliders, was to capture the bridge at Veldwezelt over the Albert Canal to the north of Vroenhoven. The final group, with ten gliders and ninety soldiers was headed for the third bridge over the canal, at Kanne.

At 04.15 the Junkers of the first Assault Detachment released their gliders, now reduced to nine in number, over the fortress of Eben Emael. The Belgian gunners were on alert, but were not expecting a glider-borne attack. The landing force spread out, attacking the bunkers on top of the fortress with satchel charges, and within 10 minutes had destroyed many of them. By now the defenders had realised that they were under attack, and the garrison commander contacted the commander of one of the artillery batteries surrounding the fort to lay a barrage on top of the fort. A battle raged atop the structure for over three hours before the attackers managed to reinforce their toehold, the men niside resisting despite dive-bombing attacks by the Luftwaffe. The fortress finally fell after new shock troops reinforced the glider troops, and Eben Emael surrendered by noon on the 11th. The fortress which had been expected to slow and attack invaders for a week had fallen in just over a day,

The other detachments had not been so successful; the bridges in Maastricht itself had been destroyed by the defenders, and the one at Kanne, which linked Maastricht with Eben Emael, had been blown up just as the assault gliders touched down. However, the main bridges at Vroenhoven and Veldwezelt had been captured intact, although they had subsequently come under heavy Belgian fire, and they were being crossed by the leading elements of the Panzer Divisions.


At Arras the night time quiet was disturbed just before dawn by the arrival of German aircraft attacking the nearby airfields. The raid was part of a widespread attack by the Luftwaffe on the Allies' airfields', railways, headquarters and key supply points in an effort to cripple air forces and disrupt communications as the opening move of the German western campaign.

News of German movements towards the frontier had reached the Belgian Government during the night and at four o'clock in the morning their Foreign Minister, M. Spaak, called on the British Ambassador in Brussels, Sir Lancelot Oliphant, and appealed for British help in resisting the German invasion, and on hearing this the BEF was instructed to commence it's move to the Dyle line.

The British Expeditionary Force had been deployed along the Franco-Belgian frontier between Halluin and Maulde. Plan D required them to make a rapid advance across Belgium, which required careful planning. Fortunately the roads were not congested with refugees at this time, and the plans - and aerial photographs of the intended routes - had been well prepared. By the night of the 10th the armoured cars of the cavalry screen had arrived at the Dyle river. The rest of the Divisions in I, II and III Corp were following. There was an issue with one unit of the 3rd Division, where the frontier barrier was closed because they could not show the necessary papers to enter Belgium. They solved the problem by crashing through the frontier barrier with a 15-cwt truck.

Meanwhile to their left the three division of the French 16 Corp were moving into Belgium, headed for Antwerp. They had been allocated all the spare transport 7th Army had available to speed this up, as it was imperative it reached the intended defensive positions before the Germans. As the remainder of 7th Army was only to move forward more slowly into a position to act as reserve, this allocation was deemed acceptable.

These were not the only forces moving forward; to the south of them the French 1st Army was also entering Belgium, its lead elements heading for the Gembloux Gap in order to buy time for the rest of the Army to take up its defensive positions and prepare field fortifications.
 
Aaaaaand - they're off!
So far nothing's notable different from OTL, except for 7th Army.
Instead of it all haring off into Holland and having to fall back, causing chaos among its units, only 3 divisions (16 Corps) is headed to Antwerp (a significantly closer target).
 
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Hmm the change to the original dyle plan and not doing the breda variant is massive already .

Also the 7th army reserve can be thrown at the panzer divisons coming from the south even with the french high command problems to contain them somewhat i imagine and thats also literally why you had the reserve in the first place so they wont be as desperate as in otl at like 13-15th may since the germans got to the rear of the armies .

And if they manage to contain them then i think a pause for a day or two by the germans for infantry to catch up and thrust towards paris seems logical while leaving the infantry divisons behind to contain the BEF , 7th army and 1st army in the north still and throw the panzers at weaker armies/divisons instead since the germans were really good at attacking weakpoints especially early in the war makes sense . Then you probably will have to take BEF out belgium and have it attack south somewhere to cut off the panzer and motorized divison like pdf story i think with a army from maginot helping aswell . And if not that then atleast attack the bulge and the infantry divisons since you cant really disengage from the north without abandoning belgium with the goal being to cut off the paris thrust at the bulge to make the thrust useless that way i guess .
 

Paternas

Donor
If the French don't use the Breda variant, does this mean the Dutch withdraw the troops south of the Meuse? That could mean more difficulties for the German Paratroopers.
 
Well, its not quite as simple as that!
The Germans had two main options assuming the breakthrough worked, the OTL Sickle Cut or turn south to envelop/cut off Paris. Other alternatives would probably depend on if and when they got held up, I suspect there was going to be a fair bit of decision-making on the hoof here.
The position of the Allied reserves means its unlikely to end up as in PDF27's Blunted Sickle, because the armies are in different places and are made up of different units. A Sickle Cut is still possible, if the Allied reserves don't act fast or effectively enough.

The first few days of Fall Gelb wont differ too much from OTL, although there will be small differences (some of those baby butterflies will get larger), because the starting positions of the various Armies rather defines this. Once the main Armies get involved, it starts to get interesting.
 
Given that they know the French Cavalry aren't riding to their rescue (at least not yet), the basic Dutch intention is to fall back behind their fortress lines. Basically their OTL plan without the optimism of 7th Army pulling off a miracle play.
That's pretty much fixed by the geography and the pre-war plans, although obviously not everything will go smoothly - they haven't really planned for an airborne attack, for example.
 
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