The Footprint of Mussolini - TL
No problem, I fully accept my ignorance of my parents' faith when it comes to the ins and outs of Church policy in the 20th Century, beyond the generalities of the question of the Church's relationship with Nazism/Fascism/Communism. I was already having to study plenty of things I was beforehand completely ignorant about - Indian/Middle-East/African geopolitics. While I was okay with alternate UK/US leaders, I didn't even know where to begin when it came to alternate Popes so I played it safe.
If I had more time, I would have tried come up with different Popes as well.
ISOT scenario: OTL’s Vatican City, Pope and tourists included, was ISOTed to the Footprint of Mussolini universe circa 1962?
The church and toursts would are firstly shocked that fascism is not only just still exst but it is too respected ideology. But depending their ideological stance they probably can copy that quickly. They anyway would are really amazed with different world.
Actually, this is pretty obvious (at least I guess) from the point of view of believing Cristians - the God is one and only, through all the alternate timelines, and Pope elections are inspired, if not outright directed, by God. So if God considered Wojtyła worthy to be a Pope OTL, there is no reason not to be worthy in TTL. People are inherently good or evil, and mere historical circumstances would not lead them astray from their path. Right?
Actually it's only certain branches of Protestantism, who believe in that kind of predetermination. Catholicism believes that to be a sinner or not is a matter of free will.
God is the same throughout all TLs, but the world isn't. So there's all kinds of potential reasons why God might direct the Cardinals elsewhere in TTL:
- In TTL someone even more worthy is alive who was dead in OTL.
- Wojtyla is just as worthy as in OTL, but someone else is also worthy and more needed.
- Wojtyla is needed more elsewhere.
Yes it’s true that all cardinals were anti-communist IOTL and ITTL definitely. The closest was Alosio Lorschedier of Brazil who had well known sympathies with Liberation Theology, a radical form of Christian Socialism. However, I haven’t seen any evidence he was ever a supporter of the USSR or some other authoritarian regime like Cuba. Agagianian would be very interesting as I doubt the USSR would be very happy at the Vatican’s choice of a known dissident as Pope. The Polish cardinals were Eugeniuz Baziak and Stefan Wyszyński who from my read of the Wikipedia article was considered a hero and a spiritual leader in Poland. It’s not implausible for him to become Pope as he would be older and only have served two years less than the front runner in 1958 Giuseppe Siri. Both a Polish or Russian Pope would be a massive middle finger to the USSR and would be interesting.
Yeah good point. Plus with a worse communist ideology ITTL they’d be willing to over look the dictatorships. To be fair I worded that part poorly. I was mostly thinking about encouraging democracy in Italy and Spain rather than calling for resisting fascism. But that also seems unlikely for the reasons you put forth. I could see more liberal cardinals opposing the Ethiopian War for being a colonialist war. Even conservatives such as Pius XI opposed colonialism (we know this from one of his statements written before his death condemning colonialism and other evils such as racism and anti-semitism). If it’s a Pope from Africa then the chances go up significantly. Even if they’re from Italy the Catholic Church even in the 30s opposed colonialism so I think that’s very plausible.
That’s true. What I’m doing for the TL I’m writing is assuming most of the cardinals are similar to each other for simplicity. Not the most plausible thing to happen but it’s easier for a relatively minor part of the TL. Different cardinals would be very difficult for any TL that covers the papacy as one of them could be easily elected Pope. For simplicity sake just assuming most cardinals are the same works out fine IMO.
Something which I wondered about in terms of uniforms, how did the Free German Army tell apart their guys from a distance from the Wehrmacht Loyalists and the SS (because friendly fire is an issue) and vice versa for the Loyalists and the SS when dealing with the FGA ? Did they retain their Model 1936 pattern Feldbluse (now in a 'Lend Lease' version) whereas the SS and the Loyalists switched to a M44 feldbluse-esque design as the war dragged on?
Because if every German faction involved in this TL's WW2 dressed mostly the same, even with some insignia rules, (ie, no arm/breast/helmet eagle or Nazi imagery= FGA soldier, Breast Eagle and Nazi Eagle on Helmet = Wehrmacht Loyalist, Black Collar Tabs, SS runes on helmet, Sleeve Eagle and Black Shoulder Boards= SS-Mann ), there is still bound to be issues with friendly fire .
And speaking about being mistaken for SS, I wonder if the post-war West German tank corps in this timeline changed the color of their ceremonial uniforms as black uniforms are popularly associated with the SS in both this TL and OTL.
Because if every German faction involved in this TL's WW2 dressed mostly the same, even with some insignia rules, (ie, no arm/breast/helmet eagle or Nazi imagery= FGA soldier, Breast Eagle and Nazi Eagle on Helmet = Wehrmacht Loyalist, Black Collar Tabs, SS runes on helmet, Sleeve Eagle and Black Shoulder Boards= SS-Mann ), there is still bound to be issues with friendly fire .
And speaking about being mistaken for SS, I wonder if the post-war West German tank corps in this timeline changed the color of their ceremonial uniforms as black uniforms are popularly associated with the SS in both this TL and OTL.
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To put this way. If you are a white South African...your living standards are not so-good. If you are a black.....it's hell.
Wasn't remaining loyalist Wehrmacht just incorporated to SS-Waffen? And perhaps FGA adopted bit more different uniform.
Similar than in North Korea.
IIRC, the Wehrmacht loyalists were merged during the final few weeks of the war, not after the coup.
Hmm, and speaking of which, I wonder if Mel Brooks ever did his Al Jolson and loudspeakers thing in TTL just like in OTL, only this time, he did it in a different theatre of operations to lure the Loyalists/W-SS defenders into a trap set up by the Free German Army and the US.
Dunno if that necessarily works... The Yakuza IRL are either mostly ethnically Korean, like you say, or (the larger group) are burakumin - ie descendants of eta, people considered untouchable under Shinto/Buddhism because they worked in slaughterhouses, tanned leather and such. Up until the 1970s, there was this huge directory of burakumin families that companies circulated so they'd know who not to hire (which contributed to them going into organised crime).
Given this...I'd have more assumed that TTL's Japan, being a far more nationalist and old-school country, would be hugely against the Yakuza, and that there'd be a lot more campaigns carried out to arrest bosses, break up syndicates, etc. And that entertainment would show them less as 'honourable' gangsters and more 'mad dogs who need a bullet in the head'.
It was a consequence of the Ezo occupation - the Yakuza was the stated enemy of the Ezo state (because it provided a cover for what they really wanted to do, destroy Japanese identity on the island) which ended up turning the Yakuza not only into a seriously profitable organisation because they ran the smuggling trade between Japan and Ezo (including for the Communist regime as bribes) but the Ezo Yakuza inadvertently became the face of Japanese resistance on Ezo, with the Japanese Yakuza cashing in on that fact to help embolden their reputation.
It was an accident of history that the Yakuza had their reputation improved ITTL.
Yakuza - Wikipedia
The Koreans aren't anywhere near the majority of the Yakuza even IOTL, and after the expulsions of Koreans following the country's complete fall to Communism, they make up an even smaller amount ITTL. Ironically, being in the Yakuza could actually enhance the reputation of Burakumin to Japanese society as long as they had some connection to the Ezo resistance.
So whose running Egypt? I truly find this timeline fascinating. A later end to colonialism, is a mixed message.
Northern Egypt is led by pope of Alexandria I think. Southern one by someone who probably is not born in OTL.
Deleted member 169412
Egypt west of the Nile is as Italian as Alberta is Canadian - some people want out, but it's a small minority.
North Egypt is a Coptic nation-state. South Egypt is an Arabic country and would quite like to unify with Sudan but after 1956 the West tend to be very distrustful of Arab countries uniting.