The Footprint of Mussolini - TL
I don't know; McCarthy's gonna McCarthy at some point, and start arguing there are communists in the army. And while Ike calmly let McCarthy destroy himself, Patton might challenge him to a duel, or brawl, over the accusations.
And Patton's going to have both impeccable war credentials and impeccable anti-communist credentials, so if McCarthy runs into that particular buz-saw it's not going to go well for him.
One interesting question though: McCarthy's Catholic. Many of his key supporters are Catholic. Heck, I think he dated a Kennedy daughter. So I have a sneaking suspicion he's going to attack the Freedom Party and the KKK as well; not as much as the communists, perhaps, but I think he'll find a way to go after them.
Md139115
Banned
If at this moment, Stalin miraculously gained the Tsar Bomba and dropped it on Washington, it would not equal the damage that has been done. It could even be said to improve the situation.
Actually...
If Stalin really wanted to make things worse, he could just spirit away Hiss and the others, then have the Soviet ambassador to Washington drop off the files to HUAC. The paranoia will be all consuming.
Actually...
If Stalin really wanted to make things worse, he could just spirit away Hiss and the others, then have the Soviet ambassador to Washington drop off the files to HUAC. The paranoia will be all consuming.
The thing I took away from the latest update was old Joe Kennedy jumping ship to the Republicans if Joe Jr survived the war and JFK's life went as it did in relation to the war then the Republican party could end up being seen as the party of the military in having a lot of war hero candidates.
Impeachment has happened exactly once in US history at this point. And it wasn't exactly a rousing success for the impeachers.
He had no issues going after Marshall per OTL, so....
Bookmark1995
Banned
HAHAHAHA!
McCarthy was a viper. Even his own fellow Republicans saw him this way. The man destroyed careers for nothing but political expediency. I think Joseph Welch was a hero for bringing him down.
I can't imagine him not using the TTL environment to sweep away more political rivals. With America now worshipping him, shit will get ugly.
Bookmark1995
Banned
Patton is A) a hardline anticommunism and B) a believer in realpolitik.
He'll shake the hand of whoever can destroy communism.
This doesn’t bode well for Central America, South America, Africa, and the Middle East.
In the general excitation I see for Patton running, I think there are other interesting events to be worthy mentioned.
1) the Democrats going much earlier to the left if surviving - which makes me wonder if there would live further a liberal movement within the same party.
2) consequently the Republicans moving more to the right - therefore wondering if a libertarian movement will emerge as well. Those elections were polarizing America and the center may look decisive electorally - but at same time risking to not be adeguately represented politically for a while, or else to be electoral majority.
3) not surprising the Kennedy looking now to the Republicans - Joseph Sr. would surely loathe Wallace. And surely would have as OTL connections with the Italian-Americans and therefore the American mafia (Giancana on the top); mafia which however would have the necessity to rethink its relations with fascist Italy, considering without the invasion of Sicily, Sicilian mafia is not in a good place: not defeated, some infiltration level, but not excessively powerful. Naturally the Kennedy's Catholic heritage will be another good presentation card in front of the Italians. At the same time, I wonder how the Irish-Americans may relate in the unfolding mess and at the same time, how Ireland will relate towards Italy TTL in general and of course in the Ulster issue.
4) Richard Nixon made his appearance, woo-hoo! And already living his nickname to his fullest...
1) the Democrats going much earlier to the left if surviving - which makes me wonder if there would live further a liberal movement within the same party.
2) consequently the Republicans moving more to the right - therefore wondering if a libertarian movement will emerge as well. Those elections were polarizing America and the center may look decisive electorally - but at same time risking to not be adeguately represented politically for a while, or else to be electoral majority.
3) not surprising the Kennedy looking now to the Republicans - Joseph Sr. would surely loathe Wallace. And surely would have as OTL connections with the Italian-Americans and therefore the American mafia (Giancana on the top); mafia which however would have the necessity to rethink its relations with fascist Italy, considering without the invasion of Sicily, Sicilian mafia is not in a good place: not defeated, some infiltration level, but not excessively powerful. Naturally the Kennedy's Catholic heritage will be another good presentation card in front of the Italians. At the same time, I wonder how the Irish-Americans may relate in the unfolding mess and at the same time, how Ireland will relate towards Italy TTL in general and of course in the Ulster issue.
4) Richard Nixon made his appearance, woo-hoo! And already living his nickname to his fullest...
I picked up on that as well, and it's interesting. It implies we'll see massive Catholic realignment toward the Republicans way ahead of schedule [1950 instead of the late 70s and early 80s].
Combine that with the fact that the Freedom Party's looking like the opposition party that will survive the blood-letting, and you've got a situation in which the Republicans basically dominate the north and upper Midwest, with Freedom having a pretty iron grip on the south, but not much opportunity to expand beyond that unless it modifies its ideology in key ways. You'll also probably see Republicans push for some stuff re: civil rights, as a wedge issue if nothing else. But I'd say they're more likely to push hard for voting rights, which could benefit them directly here, rather than the full-spectrum Civil Rights Act all at once as in OTL.
Ultimately, the Freedom Party's got the same possible problem the post-ACW Democrats had; their ideologically committed to something the rest of the country has no interest in supporting, so they need to branch out and find constituencies that agree with them on other issues but are willing to tolerate segregation.
As for the Democrats: if Catholics follow the Kennedies enne masse, the Democrats are really and truly cooked.
As far as McCarthy goes: what sank McCarthy isn't actually different ITTL; McCarthy's still McCarthy. His own personal lack of discipline and tendency to alienate people who shared his anti-communism will likely still show up, meaning at some point he'll mess with the wrong person and get destroyed.
My bet ITTL is that he crosses either Hoover, Patton, or one of the old bulls in the Freedom Party senate caucus, and whichever one it is does him a politically fatal injury.
The one caveat is if he really does marry a Kennedy; in that case Papa Joe can always take him out behind the wood-shed and make extravagant threats if McCarthy starts to look like he's going to be excessively stupid. ITTL a closer connection between McCarthy and the House of Kennedy seems likely, and Joe SR will not let Tail-gunner Joe bring down the family.
My bet ITTL is that he crosses either Hoover, Patton, or one of the old bulls in the Freedom Party senate caucus, and whichever one it is does him a politically fatal injury.
The one caveat is if he really does marry a Kennedy; in that case Papa Joe can always take him out behind the wood-shed and make extravagant threats if McCarthy starts to look like he's going to be excessively stupid. ITTL a closer connection between McCarthy and the House of Kennedy seems likely, and Joe SR will not let Tail-gunner Joe bring down the family.
I have a feeling that this is only going to hurt the Democrats in the years to come considering that America will likely be facing a worse Second Red Scare soon.
thorr97
Banned
As to McCarthy, it's difficult to separate the actual man from the caricature the Left has made of him. The "Red Scare" in the US actually turned out to be based on very solid facts. Thanks to the Venona Decrypts, the US military knew that the Soviets had deeply penetrated the US government at all levels and had been doing so for quite some time. Thanks to the opening of the Communist Party archives by Yeltsin, we learned that the Soviet efforts were even more widespread than the coldest of Cold War Warriors feared. As a result of being the most visible individual uncovering Soviet efforts in the US, the Left did everything it could to demonize, vilify and impugn McCarthy.
That doesn't mean the guy was some pilloried saint unjustly smeared. But it does make it a lot more difficult to tell where his actual failings ended and the vehement lies and character assassinations began.
That doesn't mean the guy was some pilloried saint unjustly smeared. But it does make it a lot more difficult to tell where his actual failings ended and the vehement lies and character assassinations began.
William f. Buckley's biographical novel The Red Hunter is actually a really interesting, and useful, portrait of McCarthy the man.
I'd say it wasn't the left that did him in, ultimately; it was the fact that he alienated even a lot of sympathetic anti-communists. Where the caricature comes in is in smearing some of the HUAC folks--particularly what Nixon and Kersten did--with the same brush.
thorr97
Banned
A general note here, some people seem to be forgetting the fact that up through the 1960s "Civil Rights" was a Republican thing. It was only in the mid to late 1960s that the Democrats changed their tune from being indifferent - at best - to actively hostile - more often than not - to anything to do with voting rights or civil rights for blacks in America. The power of the Southerners in the Democratic Party was just too strong to allow anyone else in the party to do otherwise.
So the Republican Party in this ATL could keep going with its civil rights agenda and use that as a selling point to the voters. Something along the lines of "this is what civil rights looks like without all that Communist stuff the Democrats added to it." That is to say, Republican support of civil rights wouldn't necessarily have to be reduced in the face of Wallace's infamy.
So the Republican Party in this ATL could keep going with its civil rights agenda and use that as a selling point to the voters. Something along the lines of "this is what civil rights looks like without all that Communist stuff the Democrats added to it." That is to say, Republican support of civil rights wouldn't necessarily have to be reduced in the face of Wallace's infamy.