Meanwhile, South Africa, the Muslim genocides and discrimination, the survival of European colonialism, even worse off Japan and Turkey ‘confronting the past’-wise, semi-segregation in the south, and the crimes against Slovenia and Ethiopia, on the other hand, are the not-good aspects of this timeline.
The Footprint of Mussolini - TL
Hence my argument this TL is just "different" from OTL in how some areas are better and others are worse than OTL.
Bookmark1995
Banned
You don't have to ignore countries. You can just take the piss out of them.
Whatever cartoons, political comics, talk shows, variety programs, and comedians exist ITTL probably make fun of South Africa. The song "I've Never Met a Nice South African" might still be written ITTL.
Countless shows made fun of Saddam Hussein OTL: even Animaniacs and Family Matters.
Hi, I have a few questions:
- What is the state of Russia's industry, science and technology? While agrarianism is prevalent and you said that they would not pursue space programs or rearmament, are there still other industries? Construction, biotech, computers, consumer goods? What about their long standing traditions in mathematics and physics, are they still alive?
- Does South Africa participate in global sports like the Olympics and World Cup?
- Are the Russians considering extracting people out of the bantusans and bring them to their territory? It could be done both from a religious mandate and because of heavy emigration of native Russians.
- What is the state of Russia's industry, science and technology? While agrarianism is prevalent and you said that they would not pursue space programs or rearmament, are there still other industries? Construction, biotech, computers, consumer goods? What about their long standing traditions in mathematics and physics, are they still alive?
- Does South Africa participate in global sports like the Olympics and World Cup?
- Are the Russians considering extracting people out of the bantusans and bring them to their territory? It could be done both from a religious mandate and because of heavy emigration of native Russians.
1) Those traditions exist, but now focus on agriculture and medicine for the most part. Heavy industries, especially weapons, are a no.
2) Absolutely not, nor any of the Bantustans, including Zululand although Zulus (and the other Bantustans technically though they are basically in sub-Somalian conditions so not likely to get out) can apply under the international banner whereas people in South Africa proper are forbidden in any context unless they specifically denounce racial exclusion, which is social death in South Africa so few take the offer.
3) People in the Bantustans are beyond messed up and all the religious zeal of Russians will be tested by people who look, speak and dress very differently. A handful of incredibly lucky people are able to get out of the Bantustans, usually by entering the constantly purged civil service, making their way to the top without being killed and conspiring to get a visa out. Almost every time is an event. The Bantustans are the closest a country can get to literally being hopeless.
Last edited:
How bad would you say are Syria and (rump) Nigeria compared to the Bantustans as you've said they're the worse places outside of the Bantustans in this world? I take it that in terms of crappiness, there is a big gap between the Bantustans and Syria and a smaller gap between Syria and the rump state of Nigeria.
Syria has decent places close to the Israeli border where the NGOs work - most of the Bantustans don't even have that. Nigeria hobbles along with support from the West African Federation.
For all the issues with Turkey, people roughly know how they want Syria to turn out. Find a way to quell extremism and build a semi-decent state. The Bantustans are so vexing because no one knows if the states ever can be viable. The land is poisoned, the fauna dead, the resources extracted, the people traumatised and infected by countless diseases, they're closer to torture chambers than states - millions have literally gone insane as a result of the constant agony of existence. It's gotten so bad that anti-natalism has become a serious movement in many of the Bantustans as a solution to end the suffering. This is precisely why South Africa is so vilified - the term 'open-air concentration camp' is absolutely fair in both literal terms and nuance.
Last edited:
And Nigeria's problem is more "they're poor and overcrowded on top of being cash-strapped", I assume?
Crazy big in the RA (including China) but Volkswagon was the big winner in ITO.
That and run by Islamists.
Ohh that's too bad. If there's any hope for the people of the bantustans is emigration, and Russia has lots of free space + an agrarian and religious culture that may be willing to tolerate the culture shock. Or at least take the children and let the bantustans depopulate themselves. It could have been a pre-condition for a trade deal between Russia and SA.
The Middle East is in peace, but at a major, massive cost.
The entirety of Jordan and massive chunks of Syria and Lebanon were ethnically cleansed by Israel and Turkey. North Morroco, Western Egypt cleansed too. Arab identity destroyed almost to the extent of pre Colombian American identity. To make things worse, the victims of these campaigns, get no sympathy and are portrayed as collectively responsible for Pan Arab and Islamist dictatorships by the western public. What is left of Syria (and OTL Iraq Anbar) is basically a giant Gaza that gets carpet bombed by Turkey every few years.
As someone who has strong roots to Libya, while I am glad not every Libyan died, I would not want to live in a world were Libyan culture is all but completely extinct!
I do understand your logic though, given the state of the region OTL, but imo it more shows that the OTL MENA is really gone south as opposed to having the MENA TTL be any sort of haven…
I think the appropriate term is "The Peace of the Dead".
I'm not honestly sure what area where most of the people would consider itself Arab today is in the best shape. Oman?
The Epilogue said that the Arab Federation (Britain's old Gulf colonies + Oman) are the only state in the region left that's an explicitly Arab state.
brooklyn99
Banned
I am in agreement. This is a TL that has been shaped in the image of the egomaniac dictator, Benito Mussolini (it's in the title after all). That world was bound to have great downsides.
Bookmark1995
Banned
But TTL Benito could easily say this to OTL America.
"You Americans speak about liberty and strength, but you fail against puny nations! You fail in Afghanistan! You fail in Vietnam! You fail in Iraq! You fail in China! I have brought balance and piece to the world, while you spread your so-called piece and fail everywhere you go!"
I'm not trying to justify Benito. Despite, as a Jew, wanting to give him a high five, he is still a nasty human being.
But America is a nation that OTL often brings wars to countries, but fails to bring any lasting peace, because we are a nation that only half-heartedly pursues international conflict, and we are a nation that doesn't have to give a shit about the outside world because of two oceans .
Americans can claim to stand for liberty, but because we hold back, we fail to export our supposedly way of life.
Is Benito's actions OK? Not at all.
But is he more effective at state-building? Yes he is.
If you look at the aftermath, that is because he didnt really state build at all.
The “solution” to Arab irredentism? Annihilate Jordan (lebensraum for ATL Israel) parts of Syria (partly lebensraum for Israel and Turkey) wiping them both of native inhabitants and expelling those to the rump “Kingdom of Syria” (implied in the epilogue to be a failed state periodically carpet bombed by Turkey.) Creation of ethnic minority ethnostates (Alawite Republic, Druze) Annihilation of western Egypt into Italian Libya, while the rest has a WWI style “population exchange” between Muslims and Copts. Slow expulsion of Muslims from Lebanon.
The state building was done by Turkey, Iran Israel and Britain, not so much Italy. (Hejaz, Arabia, Saba, Mesopotamia).
Any areas seen as “troublesome” are ethnically cleansed or dealt with through population exchange.
State building is kind of a generous term and most if that wasnt Mussolini but his co belligerents
Edit: to be clear i see your point and agree with your Mussolini would say that to America