The Footprint of Mussolini - TL

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Asp

EvilJam said:
One issue I see with your criticism is that "But they didn't do such a thing in OTL" is a point commonly used.

So what if they didn't OTL? This is TTL.
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Born in the USSA said:
That should be the slogan of this site 😂
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NotBigBrother said:
ATL to OTL is the same as fanfiction to canon.
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It depends on how far you push it. People sometimes will write Notzi alternate history where Hitler or whoever is in charge acts sensibly and isn't an anti-semitic genocidal racist. That isn't plausible at all, and it sometimes is people not so subtly using it to push their wehraboo wet dreams. You'll also see Confederate victory scenarios where the slaves get freed later on without any of the "bad feelings or racial antipathy from OTL reconstruction." That was never going to happen.

This, though, doesn't particularly strain belief. Mussolini was a guy given to changing his mind on stuff and it's not like Italy becomes a racially enlightened, non-brutal democracy.
 

Emperor of Pennsylvania

Asp said:
This, though, doesn't particularly strain belief. Mussolini was a guy given to changing his mind on stuff and it's not like Italy becomes a racially enlightened, non-brutal democracy.
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And, what's more, it wasn't even like he became good-ish overnight. He wasn't willing to be a direct ally of Germany due to the fact that they indiscriminately hated the man who saved his life for no good reason, sure. But, although he wasn't a member of the Axis Powers, he didn't do jack shit to stop the Axis for the first several years of World War II.

Also, he didn't save the German Jews out of the goodness of his heart. He brought them in to help consolidate Italian control in Libya, not for humanitarian reasons.

Only seeing the plight of the Hungarian Jews and the horrors of the Holocaust made Mussolini want to protect Jewish people out of the goodness of his heart rather than merely feeling uncomfortable in response to anti-Semitism and helping small numbers of Jews for the sake of increasing his political power. It was only after Hitler went to war with Italy that he became someone who could arguably be described as an "enlightened despot." But even after that, he wrecked the Slovenes and Arabs.


Also, it isn't like it's only right-wing dictators who get a positive treatment here. ITTL, Kim Il-Sung, the guy who, without exaggeration, founded the worst government in existence in the modern world IOTL, gets turned into the most benevolent Communist dictator in the world here. And his rule is still mythologized in TTL Korea up until the present day.

Yet, for some strange reason, none of the people accusing this timeline of being "fascist apologia" are also complaining about this timeline being "Juche apologia." Hmmm....
 
Claude C. Kenny

Claude C. Kenny

On a random note, if in this timeline some Butterfly Nets still ensured the birth of Tiffany Darwish, who will still become a recording artist and still retain one 1988 song from her OTL discography, I wonder if "All This Time" will resonate with Israel in that ITTL year as well, especially the refrain.

From the brook of Egypt to the Euphrates, indeed.

All this time
All and all I've no regrets
The sun still shines, the sun still sets
And the heart forgives, the heart forgets
Oh what will I do now with all this time?
 

Bookmark1995

Banned
Emperor of Pennsylvania said:
And, what's more, it wasn't even like he became good-ish overnight. He wasn't willing to be a direct ally of Germany due to the fact that they indiscriminately hated the man who saved his life for no good reason, sure. But, although he wasn't a member of the Axis Powers, he didn't do jack shit to stop the Axis for the first several years of World War II.

Also, he didn't save the German Jews out of the goodness of his heart. He brought them in to help consolidate Italian control in Libya, not for humanitarian reasons.

Only seeing the plight of the Hungarian Jews and the horrors of the Holocaust made Mussolini want to protect Jewish people out of the goodness of his heart rather than merely feeling uncomfortable in response to anti-Semitism and helping small numbers of Jews for the sake of increasing his political power. It was only after Hitler went to war with Italy that he became someone who could arguably be described as an "enlightened despot." But even after that, he wrecked the Slovenes and Arabs.


Also, it isn't like it's only right-wing dictators who get a positive treatment here. ITTL, Kim Il-Sung, the guy who, without exaggeration, founded the worst government in existence in the modern world IOTL, gets turned into the most benevolent Communist dictator in the world here. And his rule is still mythologized in TTL Korea up until the present day.

Yet, for some strange reason, none of the people accusing this timeline of being "fascist apologia" are also complaining about this timeline being "Juche apologia." Hmmm....
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I think the Footprint of Mussolini does show the world as it is: a place with good and bad in it, and where most of us are capable of both.

Mussolini does find a measure of empathy for the most oppressed people in history, but he's also quite cruel to the Ethiopians and Slovenians.

George Patton is a ruthless cold warrior, but he does believe that black men who get drafted deserve rights.

Strom Thurmond is a born and bred racist, but puts aside his feelings to bring peace to the South.

The Mafia are criminals, but at least they give the Klan a good black eye.

Malenkov is a Stalinist, but he does find God and helps bring a peaceful end to Soviet tyranny.

The Footprint of Mussolini doesn't strike me as an apologia for anything: everybody has something to like and something to dislike about them.
 
Alpha-King98760

Alpha-King98760

Bookmark1995 said:
I think the Footprint of Mussolini does show the world as it is: a place with good and bad in it, and where most of us are capable of both.

Mussolini does find a measure of empathy for the most oppressed people in history, but he's also quite cruel to the Ethiopians and Slovenians.

George Patton is a ruthless cold warrior, but he does believe that black men who get drafted deserve rights.

Strom Thurmond is a born and bred racist, but puts aside his feelings to bring peace to the South.

The Mafia are criminals, but at least they give the Klan a good black eye.

Malenkov is a Stalinist, but he does find God and helps bring a peaceful end to Soviet tyranny.

The Footprint of Mussolini doesn't strike me as an apologia for anything: everybody has something to like and something to dislike about them.
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Couldn’t said better myself.
 

Bookmark1995

Banned
TheDetailer said:
(Except for the KKK.)
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Bbone91 said:
And the Nazis.
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KuboCaskett said:
And the Soviets.
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These groups failed because unlike people I mentioned above, they never learned to compromise ANYTHING.

Stalin was just a paranoid jackass who didn't know how to properly manage his chronic distrust. TTL, he died by being killed by one of his own subordinates, which may have actually happened OTL.

Hitler could not control his burning hatred of others. Thus, he alienated every single power base in Europe, to the point where even his own army blew him up.

Both Mao and his wife chose ideology above their people, and suffered really horrible fates.

The Pan-Arabists never learned to accept the existence of Israel, and thus no one actually felt bad when Mussolini gave them a taste of radiation, as horrific as it was.

Success in life depends on your ability to acknowledge your own flaws, and temper your passions. Those who don't often fail.
 

Lalli

And Arab nationalists too didn't understandf that it was fucking bad idea try third holocaust and to be on bed with nazis. Some just never learn.
 

Noblesse Oblige

Bookmark1995 said:
I think the Footprint of Mussolini does show the world as it is: a place with good and bad in it, and where most of us are capable of both.

Mussolini does find a measure of empathy for the most oppressed people in history, but he's also quite cruel to the Ethiopians and Slovenians.

George Patton is a ruthless cold warrior, but he does believe that black men who get drafted deserve rights.

Strom Thurmond is a born and bred racist, but puts aside his feelings to bring peace to the South.

The Mafia are criminals, but at least they give the Klan a good black eye.

Malenkov is a Stalinist, but he does find God and helps bring a peaceful end to Soviet tyranny.

The Footprint of Mussolini doesn't strike me as an apologia for anything: everybody has something to like and something to dislike about them.
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Oh in the too long, didn't read version of it: It shows that any human is capable of great good and great evil, and that no one is purely good or evil. Even the most evil of dictators can pet the dog and the best of people can have one bad day.
 

Bookmark1995

Banned
Noblesse Oblige said:
Oh in the too long, didn't read version of it: It shows that any human is capable of great good and great evil, and that no one is purely good or evil. Even the most evil of dictators can pet the dog and the best of people can have one bad day.
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Good ol' Alexander Solzhenitsyn said something like this: If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?
 

Seandineen

this tale is so wonderful because of that ambiguity. We can see it iotl everywhere. Do you know the nation that committed itself to inclusion for wheelchair users in 1960? Aparthied Souh Africa! At the request of prime Minister Hendrick Verwoerd! During the American revolution African Americans fought each other, for the cause of American freedom and the british empire in my home state of new jersey. There is an even crazier example, Finnish leader Gustav Mannerheim, safeguarded his democracy and the hundred thousand Jews in his country from being swept behind the iron curtain by an alliance with The Nazis aganist communist Russia in World War 2! My friends, this is what makes history so stimulating!
 

Kaiko

Emperor of Pennsylvania said:
Yeah, but TTL's South Africa is on its way to winning without abandoning its horrible practices.
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I think that's more due a mixture of having a block of nations that don't place much importance on the political rights of the minority over the majority (this being the ex-Fascist but still authoritarian CIS led by China), the precedent of tolerating colonialist, imperialist, and oppressive regimes for the sake of stability, and disinterested third parties who use the cop-out argument "who are we to judge" (Russia and the like).
 

Bookmark1995

Banned
Kaiser Kolovos said:
I think that's more due a mixture of having a block of nations that don't place much importance on the political rights of the minority over the majority (this being the ex-Fascist but still authoritarian CIS led by China), the precedent of tolerating colonialist, imperialist, and oppressive regimes for the sake of stability, and disinterested third parties who use the cop-out argument "who are we to judge" (Russia and the like).
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TTL, most nations still don't like South Africa for its horrible practices.
 
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