The Footprint of Mussolini - TL

[Bookmark1995]

Strangely, I think this is one of the reasons why I want him- and why I believe- he will succeed.
A core theme in this timeline, I think, is rebirth and rebuilding from tragedy.

From the tragedy of the Holocaust, comes the State of Israel. From Nazism, comes a strong Germany. From the murder of Jackie Robinson, comes an earlier Civil Rights Movement. From the horrors of the Great Arabian War, comes the fiery birth of a dozen nations and the end of radical Islam. And now from the bloody clutches of Stalinism comes a peaceful and democratic Russia. The author have even hinted that Roman Alliance will get what is due for them.

This timeline is one which believes in two things- the tenacity of hope and the power of redemption. Against all odds, the Jews triumphed in Trieste- buoyed by the hope for a better future. Against all odds, Poland resisted the Communist juggernaut- and eventually succeeded. A southern general fond of racist jokes becomes the Civil Rights movement's greatest champion. A Nazi general helps Israel in her struggle for a homeland. A fascist dictator inadvertently stops a genocide. A man which would be a communist dictator brings democracy and prosperity to Cuba. What is more fitting than a Stalinist sycophant creating a better Russia- a better world- from the ashes of Stalinism?

That is why I think that even if everything does not go to plan- Malenkov will create a better Russia- it highlights the audacity and strength of hope against tragedy.

Man, this is...an unexpectedly powerful statement. I think this is a universal truth in any (realistic) TL.

This is a TL where even the nastiest person is capable of genuinely righteous behavior. Whether its Mussolini risking a war to protect the Jewish people, Malenkov abandoning hardline Stalinism, or Strom Thurmond shaking hands with his enemy to bring peace to his native land.

The part of the TL most emblematic of this was when those Italian and Libyan soldiers, when faced with a brutal enemy, refused to turn over their Jewish comrades. Sure, the Italian army may not be moral, but it shows that even those who fight for tyranny are not completely lost.

 

[Herr Frage]

For the Freedom Party I am thinking they may have peaked with Corely. Corely has been soft on Fascism and I think will continue to be when Fascism's stock will be doomed to decline by various rates in the West. Also his and the FP's AntiCommunist stance means little in a Post Communist world especially with the potential new rallying figure for Socialism being AntiCommunist. Also Wayne likely still dies in 79, so he won't be a viable face for the party much longer.

I am thinking the American Left as the 70s progresses will start to get its act together and we could see a three patty system USA(oh please please, break that two party mold!) with the new leftist party, centrist Republicans, and a conservative Freedom Party vying for power.

This timeline is also something of a Christianity-wank, I suppose. A democrat is supposed to be a protestant, and vice versa. A fascist is supposed to be a good catholic, in most places anyway. Now, a socialist is supposed to be a devout orthodox. This is obviously a vast oversimplification for comedic effect, but I think the point still stands.

Wasn't the Alt Kennedy still a Catholic?

And I'd argue other creeds have done better or stand to do better ITTL.

Islamism has been stymied before becoming the major force of OTL, and with no Saudi patronage, no Western funding due to the Cold War, and no Afghanistan chaos its not likely to make a comeback to the same degree as OTL; particularly with the well publicized nightmare state not only showing the evils of radicalism but also being destroyed by Muslims. Pakistan's failure was a defeat, but it seems things will improve for them in India overtime without the split. The bad situation in the Middle East is unlikely to last here as instead of local dictators its a neocolonialism which will likely fall with the RA. And we have other Muslim states that ended up dictatorships have ended up democracies in the former British Empire. So Islam has taken more hits here than OTL, but it has a much better reputation and has a foundation to grow here more than OTL.

Hinduism seems poised for better days with a more prosperous India becoming a world power. And that earlier and greater wealth and affluence could mean earlier social justice movements.

The Buddhist population in Southeast Asia and their other creed neighbors have been spared decades of war, and while still ruled by royal dictators and a French Protectorate the economy is prospering and pressure continues to build against the status quo. And while it might be violent it is not likely to take the direction of OTL. Khmer Rouge is unlikely for a big one. Thailand has also gained the Kra Canal and possibly benefited from the coup culture being stymied; albeit with a Fascist dictator in power.

And the many faiths in China have either not suffered communist persecution in the South, or will have endured it for a far shorter time in the North.

 

[Lalli]

I think the moon landing stunt was probably the point of no return.

While the USSR was not in a good place, it is possible a reformist could've come to power and fixed the system up a bit.

But when the leader engages in a costly, pathetic, and transparent attempt at propaganda, there is no hope for the system.

No Moon Landing Hoax is just too late. USSR was suffering almost annual famines and starvation and slave states were even in worse condition. Situation was going explose to faces of leaders. House of cards was going to collapse. Suslov's attempt was just a last straw which broke camel's back. Collapse was just bit delayed and might had happened more violently. Only way was allow Khruschev maintain power much longer or Suslov fall much earlier. Saying that Moon Landing hoax caused collapse is quiet oversimplifying.

I wonder what Bill Clinton's up to. Or what a Jewish Socialist from Vermont would do.

William Blythe III/Bill Clinton might be butterflied away and that Vermontian might has bit different political views. But probably him has bit easier drive his own things without so strong scare of socialism.

Mass immigration from the former Communist World to South Africa and Rhodesia. That seems prone to messiness. Will the new arrivals question the system that they've shown up to, or assimilate into a new oppressive system?

Would immigrants even care so long when they are treated well?

Tatarstan is landlocked, but it also has oil. Maybe it could become a center of Islamic Finance - a landlocked polity that transcends its geographic constraints with the advent of the electronic financial economy. I imagine they'd be pretty pro-trade as well, seeking to profit off of movement of goods through their territory.

There is much of oil but problem is that Tatarstan and Bashkorstostan are inside of Russia. For now situation is OK but in future they might are in vulnerable situation speciality if Russia goes fascist. Perhaps Kazakhstan will be center of Islam financial.

Armenia is likely going to be in a very awkward position now, with a Nationalist Turkey to their west.

Armenia is indeed in ackward situation. It hardly is willingful join to RA when Turkey tried genocide them some decades ago and Italians have history on genocide too. So not really going join to RA. And Azerbaijan might join which make Armenian situation even more problematic due dispute over Nagorno Karabakh. Perhaps it could form alliance with Russia like it is in OTL. And even that option is quiet useless when Russia is pretty toothless and there is not even common border if then Georgia doesn't join to the alliance with Armenia and Russia.

 

[Herr Frage]

Armenia is indeed in ackward situation. It hardly is willingful join to RA when Turkey tried genocide them some decades ago and Italians have history on genocide too. So not really going join to RA. And Azerbaijan might join which make Armenian situation even more problematic due dispute over Nagorno Karabakh. Perhaps it could form alliance with Russia like it is in OTL. And even that option is quiet useless when Russia is pretty toothless and there is not even common border if then Georgia doesn't join to the alliance with Armenia and Russia.

For the RA there is Bulgaria to consider; seeking protection from the powerful Orthodox fascist state which has a history of butting heads with Turkey.

Though I think Armenia may just try and join with ITO.

 

[Bookmark1995]

Armenia is indeed in ackward situation. It hardly is willingful join to RA when Turkey tried genocide them some decades ago and Italians have history on genocide too. So not really going join to RA. And Azerbaijan might join which make Armenian situation even more problematic due dispute over Nagorno Karabakh. Perhaps it could form alliance with Russia like it is in OTL. And even that option is quiet useless when Russia is pretty toothless and there is not even common border if then Georgia doesn't join to the alliance with Armenia and Russia.

A mistreatment of Armenians could be the thing that drives people in America away from the fascist bloc.

 

[Scerus]

How does the Lander work in Germany? are there regional monarchs or do local/state governments become appointed via confidence in each provincial assembly?

I'm curious because that would become a little odd wouldn't it?

I'm also interested to see how German reunification pans out and relations with Poland. As an aside, what does Warsaw look like after it was nuked? was it's baroque architecture restored by their communist government as OTL or?

 

[Lalli]

How does the Lander work in Germany? are there regional monarchs or do local/state governments become appointed via confidence in each provincial assembly?

I'm curious because that would become a little odd wouldn't it?

I'm also interested to see how German reunification pans out and relations with Poland. As an aside, what does Warsaw look like after it was nuked? was it's baroque architecture restored by their communist government as OTL or?

IIRC submonarchies weren't restored so I would assume that local governance works same way as in OTL.

 

[Scerus]

IIRC submonarchies weren't restored so I would assume that local governance works same way as in OTL.

I'm surprised Bavaria never restored their own, it had great popularity there, even after WWII.

 

[Herr Frage]

I'm also interested to see how German reunification pans out and relations with Poland. As an aside, what does Warsaw look like after it was nuked? was it's baroque architecture restored by their communist government as OTL or?

Warsaw was rebuilt on the cheap by the Soviets ITTL. The Stalingrad Pact was much more transparently exploitative with a poorer and weaker USSR. Poland and East Germany were not fully rebuilt from the wars even into 70s, another point of dissent with the people against the Soviet overlords. Apparently the new Polish government makes the restoration of Warsaw's pre1939 beauty one of its grand projects for Poland's rebirth.

 

[Red Pączki]

I knew Malenkov’s conversation was building to something big. How’d you come up with the idea?

 

[Sorairo]

I knew Malenkov’s conversation was building to something big. How’d you come up with the idea?

Trying to come up with something original for the fall of Communism - I thought it was interesting how Malenkov became a Christian later in life so I put them together. The Moon Landing idea came from an old post on the board years ago where the idea of a faked Moon Landing by anyone was explained as insanity that would obliterate their credibility.

 

[Gar48]

Talking about Malenkov and Tolsoyism, i suspect a lot of russian weapons and "volounteers" will start arriving from Russia to Ethiopia in the future.
Four reasons for this:
1) Considering the heavy emphasis Tolsoyism puts on religion, the new russian government probably considers helping their fellow ethiopian orthodoxes against the italians its moral duty.
2) After years of Stalinist policies, Malenkov probably needs to get rid of a lot of conventional weapons
3) One of the key reasons behind Malenkov's conversion was the replacement of comunism with "a corrupt form of fascism" on the international stage. Malenkov clearly doesn't want to see the same thing happening again so i can see him supporting the ethiopian rebels to spread Tolsoyism worlwide
4) Ironically it would help Russia improving its relationship with the rest of the West. With the fall of the Stalingrad Pact the RA has now become the new Evil Empire and both ITO and Russia have plenty of reasons to support Ethiopia.

 

[Noblesse Oblige]

Strangely, I think this is one of the reasons why I want him- and why I believe- he will succeed.
A core theme in this timeline, I think, is rebirth and rebuilding from tragedy.

From the tragedy of the Holocaust, comes the State of Israel. From the dark depths of Nazism, rises a strong, free, Germany. From the murder of Jackie Robinson, comes an earlier Civil Rights Movement. From the horrors of the Great Arabian War, comes the fiery birth of a dozen nations and the end of radical Islam. And now from the bloody clutches of Stalinism comes a peaceful and democratic Russia. The author have even hinted that Roman Alliance will get what is due for them.

This timeline is one which believes in two things- the tenacity of hope and the power of redemption. Against all odds, the Jews triumphed in Trieste- buoyed by the hope for a better future. Against all odds, Poland resisted the Communist juggernaut- and eventually succeeded. A southern general fond of racist jokes becomes the Civil Rights movement's greatest champion. A Nazi general helps Israel in her struggle for a homeland. A fascist dictator inadvertently stops a genocide. A man which would be a communist dictator brings democracy and prosperity to Cuba. What is more fitting than a Stalinist sycophant creating a better Russia- a better world- from the ashes of Stalinism?

That is why I think that even if everything does not go to plan- Malenkov will create a better Russia- it highlights the audacity and strength of hope against tragedy.

This Timeline is more a case telling the lesson that "all men are capable of doing great good, or great evil." Countries are like machines in that regard, its purpose is only built by the people who steer it.

 

[Whiteshore]

Didn't one of the earlier chapters hinted that missiles were launched against Israel from a place called "Mesopotamia"?
Considering the situation in the kingdoms of Syria and Iraq, i wouldn't be surprised if the end of the RA allowed the local population to overthrow their puppet kings and unite in a single country.

Maybe such a Mesopotamia follows an ideology derived from Saadeh's ideas of Syrian Social Nationalism, considering Pan-Arabism is a fringe ideology as of the present-day?

 

[Dolan]

Talking about Malenkov and Tolsoyism, i suspect a lot of russian weapons and "volounteers" will start arriving from Russia to Ethiopia in the future.
Four reasons for this:
1) Considering the heavy emphasis Tolsoyism puts on religion, the new russian government probably considers helping their fellow ethiopian orthodoxes against the italians its moral duty.

Cue Ethiopians getting tanks and other heavy weapons "paid by prayers", giving Tolstoyism a firm grip in postcolonial Ethiopia.

 

[Noblesse Oblige]

There is much of oil but problem is that Tatarstan and Bashkorstostan are inside of Russia. For now situation is OK but in future they might are in vulnerable situation speciality if Russia goes fascist. Perhaps Kazakhstan will be center of Islam financial.

At this point, it'll just be hypotheticals. Though my money's on Iran maybe...

Armenia is indeed in ackward situation. It hardly is willingful join to RA when Turkey tried genocide them some decades ago and Italians have history on genocide too. So not really going join to RA. And Azerbaijan might join which make Armenian situation even more problematic due dispute over Nagorno Karabakh. Perhaps it could form alliance with Russia like it is in OTL. And even that option is quiet useless when Russia is pretty toothless and there is not even common border if then Georgia doesn't join to the alliance with Armenia and Russia.

Or worse, if Georgia chooses to join the RA, if that happens, Armenia is just screwed, plain and simple.

 

[glenn67]

It is possible that Bernie Sanders may choose to stay in New York instead of moving to Vermont. And there are likely no counterculture movements ITTL.

 

[Gen.Jurten]

And there are likely no counterculture movements ITTL

There are, but they are in Italy

 

[Kaiko]

If we count "counter culture" as a portion of society going against the grain then there's probably a few Italians who believes that Mussolini got Fascism right and Balbo is making a mess of things. There could be others who believe that Mussolini came in like the dictators of the Roman Republic, and power should go back to the King now that Italy is strong. But none of these groups are large enough.

I think it's gonna take a few years for an actual counter movement to take root in Italy and call for reforms, but the seeds are there.

 

[Dolan]

probably a few Italians who believes that Mussolini got Fascism right and Balbo is making a mess of things. There could be others who believe that Mussolini came in like the dictators of the Roman Republic, and power should go back to the King now that Italy is strong. But none of these groups are large enough.

This would ironically split the Fascist Party into Three ("Balbo's" Fascists, Social Fascists (those who try to be Mussolini purists), and Royal Fascists), and the King, in his wisdom, decided that their difference shall be settled in a free and fair election...

Cue Italy becoming Democratic quickly without removing the "Fascists" from power. Because the three parties basically claim they are Adherent to Fascism.