The Footprint of Mussolini - TL
Well, that's a good indicator of British power projection and/or economic health. The Commonwealth's on track to potentially become a proper player on the global stage in the wake of the Soviet and Italian collapses/potential reformation in the case of the latter - maybe not OTL China level, but up there with some proper hard power. Speaking of which, anyone else interested in how the Soviet and RA collapses will go? I'm imagining, given what's been hinted and the signs we've been given, that the Soviet collapse will be quite violent, possibly resulting in a second Russian civil war and foreign intervention, while the Fascist collapse might be similar to real life, with perhaps a North Korea equivalent in a particularly stubborn member who refuses to give up the ghost?
I'm surprised the USSR still was able to do Sputnik, but I guess even the Soviet Union can have it one good moment. (But I do love the irony hinted that the Space Race will be the final nails.) Same for the USSR basically forsaken the rest of the Communist World.
Cyprus may be a clue at Greece attempting to do the same as South Iran has done: Defection from the Roman Alliance to the ITO and later an attempt to regain it lost territory.
Cyprus may be a clue at Greece attempting to do the same as South Iran has done: Defection from the Roman Alliance to the ITO and later an attempt to regain it lost territory.
It was seen as a Hail Mary to regain prestige after having lost so much due to Stalin’s BS.
The problem is Greece is occupied and perfectly willing to crush revolt in a way Britain is not.
That, I can understand. But what comes up, must comes down. And for the USSR, it be hella hard on impact.
Maybe not like South Iran, but I think the UK would soon try and start arming an movement within Greece and lost Greek land.
I was thinking that instead of doubling down on Stalinism, the Soviets could have done partial liberalization, since they know Patton will soon leave power, and the RA has created OPEC, which can be neutered early if Soviet oil flows into the democracies's gas stations.
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Also, if I am to throw my own hat into the Star Wars-themed ring again, here's a little quote from Grand Admiral Thrawn:
"I encounter civilians like you all the time. You believe the Empire is continually plotting to do harm. Let me tell you, your view of the Empire is far too dramatic. The Empire is a government. It keeps billions of beings fed and clothed. Day after day, year after year, on thousands of worlds, people live their lives under Imperial rule without seeing a stormtrooper or hearing a TIE fighter scream overhead."
My guess is similar to that predicated above; the Empire, while antagonists, won't solely be comprised of villains, and will be a bit more nuanced than the beast we're familiar with, while the Sith might have more noble intentions and a slightly greyer history. The Emperor might staunchly believe that, despite the human/alien cost of his actions, it was better than the slow death endured by victims of the Old Republic's corruption and vice; Vader might adhere to some sort of honourable code in line with his samurai inspirations, and be a father to his men; Dooku might be a genuine revolutionary here, inspired by the Sith Code's final line "the Force shall set me free", who Sidious loses control over, perhaps having his leadership and support of the Separatist movement, maybe only meant to be a small political/military scandal on the road to building the Empire, become genuine over the course of the Clone Wars.
Overall, my supposition is this; the Empire is portrayed as undoubtedly wrong, but most people are working for it out of genuine patriotism and good intentions - they'll have their share of general rippers and humanocentrists, but it won't be anything like the systemic corruption and racism of canon. Maybe the Sith, while being the dark counterpart to the Jedi, will come off as more subtle and, again, nuanced, with the Dark Side more being a unintentional whirlpool of emotion and (negative) worldly attachment accidentally blocking the true enlightenment of the Force's light side than the outright malevolence of canon. Hell, maybe Vader defeats the Emperor by embracing both the light and the dark, finding the spiritual meeting ground between the detachment and spiritual enlightement of the light, and the worldly emotions of the dark, thus bringing balance to the Force.
To surmise: the bad guys are still bad, but it's more that they're that one guy who accidentally ate your cupcake without realising it was yours, as opposed the guy who saw you had a cupcake, set it on fire, threw it out the window, bashed the remains apart with a hammer, covered the crumbs in soy sauce and banana slices, put them on a tray, baked them, and ate the resulting abomination just to spite you.
Hmm. Maybe the sequel trilogy is about the Imperial Remnant and New Republic banding together to face some new threat inspired by the Nazis. Yuuhzan Vong, maybe?
Sorry, kinda rambled here.
"I encounter civilians like you all the time. You believe the Empire is continually plotting to do harm. Let me tell you, your view of the Empire is far too dramatic. The Empire is a government. It keeps billions of beings fed and clothed. Day after day, year after year, on thousands of worlds, people live their lives under Imperial rule without seeing a stormtrooper or hearing a TIE fighter scream overhead."
My guess is similar to that predicated above; the Empire, while antagonists, won't solely be comprised of villains, and will be a bit more nuanced than the beast we're familiar with, while the Sith might have more noble intentions and a slightly greyer history. The Emperor might staunchly believe that, despite the human/alien cost of his actions, it was better than the slow death endured by victims of the Old Republic's corruption and vice; Vader might adhere to some sort of honourable code in line with his samurai inspirations, and be a father to his men; Dooku might be a genuine revolutionary here, inspired by the Sith Code's final line "the Force shall set me free", who Sidious loses control over, perhaps having his leadership and support of the Separatist movement, maybe only meant to be a small political/military scandal on the road to building the Empire, become genuine over the course of the Clone Wars.
Overall, my supposition is this; the Empire is portrayed as undoubtedly wrong, but most people are working for it out of genuine patriotism and good intentions - they'll have their share of general rippers and humanocentrists, but it won't be anything like the systemic corruption and racism of canon. Maybe the Sith, while being the dark counterpart to the Jedi, will come off as more subtle and, again, nuanced, with the Dark Side more being a unintentional whirlpool of emotion and (negative) worldly attachment accidentally blocking the true enlightenment of the Force's light side than the outright malevolence of canon. Hell, maybe Vader defeats the Emperor by embracing both the light and the dark, finding the spiritual meeting ground between the detachment and spiritual enlightement of the light, and the worldly emotions of the dark, thus bringing balance to the Force.
To surmise: the bad guys are still bad, but it's more that they're that one guy who accidentally ate your cupcake without realising it was yours, as opposed the guy who saw you had a cupcake, set it on fire, threw it out the window, bashed the remains apart with a hammer, covered the crumbs in soy sauce and banana slices, put them on a tray, baked them, and ate the resulting abomination just to spite you.
Hmm. Maybe the sequel trilogy is about the Imperial Remnant and New Republic banding together to face some new threat inspired by the Nazis. Yuuhzan Vong, maybe?
Sorry, kinda rambled here.
Can we get an alignment map? Or even just a list for the ITO, RA, And SP?
Well, I kinda feel sorry for Eden, but the old Britih Empire dying is I think going to be a brighter spot here than OTL. After South Iran stabbed the British in the back and joined the RA I expect the British will be wary of nationalist strongmen types for decolonization. So we might see some good from the Troy's reluctance and Labours ideals seeing swathes of the empire getting independence as functioning democratic nations. Why they may even consider local issues on the matter of borders and such!
Though with France digging in now for a colonial slog this could hint at further fractures forming over policy between London and Paris.
As nuclear power getting a boost from the RA controlled OPEC equivalent, this is possible. But with the Remaining BP and American Oil power it won't be a smooth ride. And any Chernobyl style disaster is likely to get peopel on edge. in the short term I expect the answer will be trying to fond more oil. Longer term we could see various alternate energy get more exploration. But that progress could hit a roadblock when the Fascist crisis kicks in the 80s opening that oil market again.
For the US, exit Patton. Seems such a sniffle to just casually die like that. But that's the way. President Kennedy takres power, and we mst see how his plansunfold at home and abroad? And Thurmond made a good showing and with him crushing the SRP the Freedom SPrty has secured its status as on of two in the two Party System for now.
So is the UK now the United Kingdom of Great Britain, Northern Irleand, Cyrpus, Malta, the Falkland Islands, and Gibraltar?
And what will Suslov do about North Iran and the rest of the Pact?
Well, I kinda feel sorry for Eden, but the old Britih Empire dying is I think going to be a brighter spot here than OTL. After South Iran stabbed the British in the back and joined the RA I expect the British will be wary of nationalist strongmen types for decolonization. So we might see some good from the Troy's reluctance and Labours ideals seeing swathes of the empire getting independence as functioning democratic nations. Why they may even consider local issues on the matter of borders and such!
Though with France digging in now for a colonial slog this could hint at further fractures forming over policy between London and Paris.
As nuclear power getting a boost from the RA controlled OPEC equivalent, this is possible. But with the Remaining BP and American Oil power it won't be a smooth ride. And any Chernobyl style disaster is likely to get peopel on edge. in the short term I expect the answer will be trying to fond more oil. Longer term we could see various alternate energy get more exploration. But that progress could hit a roadblock when the Fascist crisis kicks in the 80s opening that oil market again.
For the US, exit Patton. Seems such a sniffle to just casually die like that. But that's the way. President Kennedy takres power, and we mst see how his plansunfold at home and abroad? And Thurmond made a good showing and with him crushing the SRP the Freedom SPrty has secured its status as on of two in the two Party System for now.
So is the UK now the United Kingdom of Great Britain, Northern Irleand, Cyrpus, Malta, the Falkland Islands, and Gibraltar?
And what will Suslov do about North Iran and the rest of the Pact?
Either just replace the leadership with bootlickers or (rather unlikely) make it an SSR as punishment for its disobedience.
There are no "New" Arab subjects. All the Arabs from the annexed areas were expelled.
Most of the Arabs in Israel are Christians and Bedouins, they never had a real problem with them.
Well, kinda. I think it's less of the empire dying, and more evolving into a more democratic body - kinda like what it did IOTL with the Commonwealth, but with the organisation actually having some teeth and balls when it comes down to it.
I think it's more like they're counties - regional subdivisions like East Anglia or Hertfordshire. If not, boy that's going to be a mouthful and a half.
But yeah, I think we can expect that Britain and France aren't going quietly into the night here - the Commonwealth has evolved from the empire, and something tells me the French aren't going to be letting go of certain territory. On the plus side, maybe, trying to ape the British or just hold together the empire however they can, they might actually accept Gabon's incorporation as an overseas departement. On the downside, I think it's been implied they're gonna have IRA-level troubles (no pun intended) in French Algeria, and given the hatred of Arabs near-omnipresent across most of the world, they'll probably be able to get away with some pretty extreme countermeasures.
Well, I say extreme, it's a bit hard to escalate after you nuke somebody. Hmm. Here's my guesses for what the current Great Powers (France, Italy, USSR, Britain/Commonwealth, US) are gonna look like in the present:
- Britain: Stronger than OTL, probably both more liberal and conservative than OTL. On the liberal side, they're probably going to amount to first-among-equals in a highly cosmopolitan empire/alliance, and have a strong negative example against setting up a surveillance state or curtailling civil liberties due to the Cool War against the Fascists (makes me think of Mussolini on a skateboard when I type it). On the conservative, national pride/patriotism is higher due to Britain having more importance on the world stage through the Commonwealth, there's still going to be that residual hatred of Marxism and far-left politics, probably intensified after the USSR collapses and the aforementioned data gets out, and the welfare state never got built to anything near it's OTL size, so there's that.
- France: Best-case scenario; France dealt with the Algerian Troubles somewhere in the late 20th century with an equivalent to the Good Friday Agreement. While more conservative than OTL due to maintaining French Algeria and presumably more overseas departmentes than OTL, as well as having more influence worldwide, probably not too dissimilar from today's France. They'd probably veto any attempt to give (Arab) refugees shelter in Europe, however, because Aflaq fucked up enough that it'd still be a problem decades later. Middle-case scenario; France ruthlessly crushed any FLN activity in French Algeria while failing to stop them in Algeria proper, eventually and begrudgingly giving the Algerians their independence on the understanding that the coast was French, now and forever. A more conservative and watchful nation, rigorous about maintaining their sphere of influence and resolutely anti-Communist, anti-Arab, and, while engaged in the Cool War the same as everyone else (cue skateboard Mussolini graphic), far less reluctant to use 'Fascist methods' in maintaining their national prestige. Finally, worst-case scenario. France loses Algeria due to consistently fucking up and refusing to give ground. The national humiliation might result in them becoming Europe's arch-conservatives - any refugees, presuming this TL's history rhymes with ours, would be told by armed patrols to fuck off, they'd be scrupulous in maintaining what little of their empire they'd kept, and might even fall into post-Fascist Italy's orbit.
- USSR: Inevitably gonna crash and burn. Interestingly, Sorairo has stated it's going to be because of the Space Race - while I'm curious as to how that's gonna work, at this point it's academic. The USSR will fall. The question is, how hard, and will they recover. Best case scenario: the Russian collapse is messy and will take a hell of a lot of time to recover from, but speedy foreign intervention, presumably on the side of any 'White' faction, allows the process of rebuilding to start early. While modern Russia might be intentionally neutered, power projection-wise, and be mistrusted/loathed by various parts of the world, particularly mega-Israel, it'll probably be a bit less Putinist than our Russia. Middle-case: the Second Russian Civil War is a humanitarian catastrophe, and only somewhat belated international assistance prevented it from getting worse. Post-war Russia is presumably divided into two successor states, one democratic, one fascist, maybe, if you're feeling especially optimistic for the Reds, with a rump USSR in Kamchatka or Siberia. The fascists might restore the Tsardom, just to really deliver one last 'fuck you' to the Communists, but the democratic regime will likely be republican in light of the German royal family's refusal of the Russian throne. Speaking of which, Poland will regain historically polish territories, perhaps sparking a debate over German borders, perhaps not. Huge lists of atrocities will be revealed, and communism will be discredited even more than it currently is. Worst-case scenario: international help doesn't come. The Russian civil war rages on, and on, and on, with covert aid being supplied to various factions, until someone detonates a nuke. Finally, international forces appear, and crush the Red regime. Everyone else, meanwhile, is stuck in position, reduced to little more than either puppet states of the Western powers and RA or rogue states. Frankly, worst-case scenario Russia would resemble modern Africa at best - some parts are lovely, but way too many warlords and the odd neo-Communist insurgency - and Fallout's America at worst.
- Italy: Gonna fall too, but it'll be a hell of a lot gentler than the Soviets. I'm guessing that a Duce in the mould of Gorbachev comes to power, and similar events cascade from there. First, various RA states undergo democratic revolutions - I'm guessing Spain might end up being a velvet revolution, but Greece and North Egypt might get bloody. Ethiopia is pulled out of - no Good Friday Agreements here - but Somalia or Eritrea might get held onto as equivalents to BOTs, or simply let go for being unprofitable. Libya, being wholly integrated, remains a centralised part of Italy that happens to be in North Africa. Modern Italy will probably be a bit like our modern Russia - they might have a pretty bad time of it in the late 80s-early 90s, but might resurge over time. There'll probably be some romanticisation of the fascist period, the same way some Russians look back and sigh at the memory of the good old days, but Italy will most likely operate either under a Putin-equivalent happy to keep up an appearance of due process and employ Fascist methods while toeing the line, or be a country trying to be a proper democracy but failing. Expect the Mafia to return with a vengeance, and some pretty neat Red Alert equivalents. History rhymes, after all.
- America: I expect America to be much different than OTL. The fact that the Civil Rights Movement was championed by Patton is doubtless going to shape the 60s, and with those changed, well, who knows what modern America will look like except our author? But generally, expect the country to be both more conservative and more liberal. America fought a Cold War then a Cool War against much worse communists and fascists, and that's got to have shaped the national psyche and debate - degrees of socialism is definitely going to be a hot-button issue, and populist agitation sourced in appealing to 'the people' is probably going to be frowned on a lot - people like Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders would have to campaign much differently here.
Bookmark1995
Banned
To add to the discussion, we could also see the nuances of the "good guys".
Perhaps the Jedi aren't as clean as we are led to believe. OTL Star Wars portrays rebellion against the Jedi as comparable to Lucifer's rebellion against God. If you don't join the Jedi, you are basically "Space Satan."
TTL, perhaps the Jedi brought about its own downfall. Perhaps underneath the picture of wholesomeness was a whole lot of backstabbing, corruption, racism, and elitism. The Jedi gradually displaced its noble intentions and became an elitist social club that sought only power. It basically decayed along with the Old Republic. Anakin didn't quit over some demented love for his wife. He was tired of the hypocrisy and selfishness of Jedi masters.
Perhaps the power of the Sith is not nearly as cruel as Anakin has been led to believe. Perhaps the same power that is used to choke people can also help people. Maybe he saves his wife from dying by childbirth. Perhaps he can rescue people.
Also, not everyone benefited from the Jedi. Perhaps the Jedi fell victim to racism and excluded a minority of aliens. This same minority manages to prosper under the Galactic Empire.
Yoda tells young Luke the importance of darkness.
"Protect, the darkness does. All sides a warrior must have."
Bookmark1995
Banned
Not to mention the somewhat verminous and duplicitous nature of his "allies" on the international stage.
That was probably what the Corn Lord would have done if he didn't have a "heart attack".
Awesome.
So Mussolini has lived to see Fascism reach its peak eh? That will only increase his legend and make it easier to blame the decline on 'inadequate successors' for his fans. Speaking of which we can remove Graziani from the list of potential successors with his death confirmed to be coming up.
Indeed that could have been a fine strategy. But I dare say the West would not be easily won over even with Patton gone. Their rediscovered distrust for the Fascists does not mean their hate fr the Soviets has decreased.
But as it is Suslov seems to have doomed his cause with this course of action.