The Footprint of Mussolini - TL

[vishnu]

Uh...no they cant. Fascism is explicitly anti Democratic and there is no way the two can reconcile. The "best" that can be done is for a political party to crib some rhetoric from Fascism ("Fuck Minorities and "Subversives"") but they can never really implement policies which would become fascism without either getting there ass kicked or actually turning a country Fascist.

If Democratic countries can implement Fascist leaning laws then surely Fascist regimes can adopt more democratic styles of bureaucracy to ease the transition into the modern world. Look around us. Many of the world nations claim to be democratic but they also implement Fascist leaning laws and upholds some such ideals. There is no shame in admitting that it exists and it works.

 

[Bookmark1995]

Perhaps Democratic ideals and Fascism gets combined and a fusion of it might just play out in the world. The two can go hand in hand as it actually keeps the other in check.

Uh....

No.

Fascism (at least in the Italian sense TTL) and democracy are not remotely compatible.

 

[Gar48]

If Democratic countries can implement Fascist leaning laws then surely Fascist regimes can adopt more democratic styles of bureaucracy to ease the transition into the modern world. Look around us. Many of the world nations claim to be democratic but they also implement Fascist leaning laws and upholds some such ideals. There is no shame in admitting that it exists and it works.

Some of Mussolini's quotes about democracy:

"The struggle between the two worlds [Fascism and Democracy] can permit no compromises. It's either Us or Them!"

"Democracy is talking itself to death. The people do not know what they want; they do not know what is the best for them. There is too much foolishness, too much lost motion. I have stopped the talk and the nonsense. I am a man of action. Democracy is beautiful in theory; in practice it is a fallacy. You in America will see that some day."

"The truth is that men are tired of liberty."

"Democracy is a kingless regime infested by many kings who are sometimes more exclusive, tyrannical and destructive than one, even if he be a tyrant."

"We have buried the putrid corpse of liberty"

 

[vishnu]

Some of Mussolini's quotes about democracy:

"The struggle between the two worlds [Fascism and Democracy] can permit no compromises. It's either Us or Them!"

"Democracy is talking itself to death. The people do not know what they want; they do not know what is the best for them. There is too much foolishness, too much lost motion. I have stopped the talk and the nonsense. I am a man of action. Democracy is beautiful in theory; in practice it is a fallacy. You in America will see that some day."

"The truth is that men are tired of liberty."

"Democracy is a kingless regime infested by many kings who are sometimes more exclusive, tyrannical and destructive than one, even if he be a tyrant."

"We have buried the putrid corpse of liberty"

Really? I can pawn of the darkest most brutal regimes the so called democratic governments does and the list will triumph any fascist ruler in history. But I was talking in context of this timeline. The Fascist and the Democraticpowers are working hand in hand in this TL. I am saying maybe they both may get inevitably be influenced by one another here.

Modern democratic nations in our world are already being influenced by Fascist ideas bcz there are some parts of it that is good for a nation. The Fascist ideals actually fiercely protects the identity of a nation than any democracy. The Fascist leader may be the one to choose which form the identity of going to shape but it is an identity that is going to resonate with people.

My point is that Democracy is not the final answer as we have already seen. The existing system is not perfect and it has to evolve so I don't see why in this timeline when such rapid changes have occurred might just make these unlikely ideals to coexist and might even compliment eachother.

 

[Lalli]

It is good to remember that Fascists and Democratic nations cooperate against common enemy. They don't necessarility like systems of each others but it is quiet pragmatic to cooperate. Things probably change when common enemy is gone.

Notice that even in OTL and ITTL Soviets and Americans cooperate during WW2 but them became quieckly enemies. And in OTL democratic nations managed cooperate with oppressive regimes but they did that only because these regimes opposed Communism. But soon after Cold War ended for them Latin American military juntas, Apartheid South Africa and many African dictators weren't anymore important and basically Juntas were enforced step down and South Africa had give full rights to Blacks.

 

[CalBear]

Really? I can pawn of the darkest most brutal regimes the so called democratic governments does and the list will triumph any fascist ruler in history. But I was talking in context of this timeline. The Fascist and the Democraticpowers are working hand in hand in this TL. I am saying maybe they both may get inevitably be influenced by one another here.

Modern democratic nations in our world are already being influenced by Fascist ideas bcz there are some parts of it that is good for a nation. The Fascist ideals actually fiercely protects the identity of a nation than any democracy. The Fascist leader may be the one to choose which form the identity of going to shape but it is an identity that is going to resonate with people.

My point is that Democracy is not the final answer as we have already seen. The existing system is not perfect and it has to evolve so I don't see why in this timeline when such rapid changes have occurred might just make these unlikely ideals to coexist and might even compliment eachother.

Fascism is in part "good for a nation"?

Seriously?

Well, checking your history I see you have two prior kicks for bigoted remarks.

Those make a lot more sense in light of these last few posts.

To Coventry with you.

 

[novussa]

Sorry for my comment didnt think it would spiral into this.

 

[ghilonif]

Returning to the matter of the fall of Fascism:

• By the time it happens, at least two and an half generations would have lived entirely under Fascism. Indeed, many of the current hierarchy will be dead around 1975. Curiously, party secretary Carlo Scorza of TNO "fame" will be one of the last old members.
• Of course any successor regime will have to deal with a fascist burocracy.
• It is reasonable to assume a sort of perestrojka, due to internal and external pressure.

The PNF, which was engineered by Mussolini to be a melting pot devoted to him, left without a unifying leader will probably splinter about some issue, expecially Ethiopia.
The most intransigent part of the party will be in minority, and subsequently the moderates and the reformist will start making gradual changes. The constitution of the Kingdom of Italy could be changed with a normal law, which in the fascist state meant Mussolini could change it with a decree, which he did several times.
The end result will probably be a sort of authoritarian democracy, where the party system is composed of 5 or 6 parties, namely the militarist-chauvinist right-wing, the center (retains the PNF moniker, represents the hierarchy, most of the industries and corporations, and the burocracy), the fringe Liberal/Radical/Green party (~3%), the left wing fascist party (MSI seems a good name), the PPI/Democrazia Cristiana (center-left to left, 15%), a version of the PSI which will totally be against communism due to the experiences with Stalin and will intercept around 5-7% of the votes, at first.

 

[wabbitking]

Sorry for my comment didnt think it would spiral into this.

Eh don't worry about it. With the premise of the timeline it was bound to happen sooner or later.

 

[Herr Frage]

I actually think Mussolini's death will be handled fairly smoothly. Assuming its in a few years or less he has too much popularity with masses and the general body politic to dismantle his system right off. And the players have been diligently preparing and making alliances I expect. At the time I am guessing the world will look with both weariness and assurance as the next 'great' Fascist dictator takes his seat leading one of the three Alliance Systems.

And the next guy may do well on the surface lading through the Cold War probably living to see the Soviet fall. But as his reign goes on you will see problems accumulate. Ongoing wars with little to be gained as the victory rushes from Mussolini fades. With Italy already a great power that's a promise fulfilled and some would question if its not better now to enjoy that prize. More travel and culture exchange with the West. The economy either continues to liberalize undermining the Fascist doctrine or they clamp down with it then being blamed for any stagnation. And with the fall of the Communist threat Fascism can no longer do what Balbo did in his 70s interview and fall back on the idea that as bad as they are they are better then the communists.

In short people in and outside Italy questioning ever more if they really need Fascism anymore? They can even keep defending Mussolini; saying such things may have once been necessary, but the mission is accomplished and now is the time for another new direction for the future.

So by the 80s I am thinking its not any particular event that happens to bring down the One Party State much as the powderkeg was awaiting a match; and one will finally be dropped.

 

[Bookmark1995]

I actually think Mussolini's death will be handled fairly smoothly. Assuming its in a few years or less he has too much popularity with masses and the general body politic to dismantle his system right off. And the players have been diligently preparing and making alliances I expect. At the time I am guessing the world will look with both weariness and assurance as the next 'great' Fascist dictator takes his seat leading one of the three Alliance Systems.

And the next guy may do well on the surface lading through the Cold War probably living to see the Soviet fall. But as his reign goes on you will see problems accumulate. Ongoing wars with little to be gained as the victory rushes from Mussolini fades. With Italy already a great power that's a promise fulfilled and some would question if its not better now to enjoy that prize. More travel and culture exchange with the West. The economy either continues to liberalize undermining the Fascist doctrine or they clamp down with it then being blamed for any stagnation. And with the fall of the Communist threat Fascism can no longer do what Balbo did in his 70s interview and fall back on the idea that as bad as they are they are better then the communists.

In short people in and outside Italy questioning ever more if they really need Fascism anymore? They can even keep defending Mussolini; saying such things may have once been necessary, but the mission is accomplished and now is the time for another new direction for the future.

So by the 80s I am thinking its not any particular event that happens to bring down the One Party State much as the powderkeg was awaiting a match; and one will finally be dropped.

So, how could the ITTL liberalization of Italy play out?

An Estado Novo style revolution?

A moderate successor who sets the stage for future liberalization?

A bloodless coup against the Italian monarchy?

 

[thanix01]

I can’t say I fully agree that all RA member will democratize eventually. I believe that some of them might find a way to reform the system to be able to survive in modern world like what PRC did. Of course it would be foolish to believe that all RA nation can do it many will fail obviously.

With allegory we seen so far we might even see Italian Tianmen or something similiar.

While RA power will decline I think it could be possible faction for various non democratic and communist regime in the future to join.

 

[Herr Frage]

A bloodless coup against the Italian monarchy?

The monarchy might actually help bring the One Party State down. It will depend on the character of the king at the time and their relationship with the party. With all the butterflies we can't really know how the next generation of Savoys will turn out.

 

[Bookmark1995]

The monarchy might actually help bring the One Party State down. It will depend on the character of the king at the time and their relationship with the party. With all the butterflies we can't really know how the next generation of Savoys will turn out.

I get the impression that Italy's king was basically a puppet of Mussolini. So I don't know what influence the Savoys could have.

 

[Drizzt]

So, how could the ITTL liberalization of Italy play out?

An Estado Novo style revolution?

A moderate successor who sets the stage for future liberalization?

A bloodless coup against the Italian monarchy?

OTL South Korea might be how it plays out.
Economic developemnt results in a growing and more politically aware middle-class of engineers, technicians, doctors, etc. as well as factory work being ever more skilled and training intensive. Meaning a demand for political reform coming from people who are not expendable/replaceable in the way peasants and manual labourers are and also have friends and familiy amongst junior officers in the army. Eventually the top dogs are faced with the prospect of either:
1. Giving in to demands for democratization, while keeping their wealth and being in an entrenched position to still be major players in politics.
2. Risk a Civil War they might well loose and will see their countries economy wrecked even if they win.

You don't need to be some idealistic reformer to prefer option one.

 

[novussa]

OTL South Korea might be how it plays out.
Economic developemnt results in a growing and more politically aware middle-class of engineers, technicians, doctors, etc. as well as factory work being ever more skilled and training intensive. Meaning a demand for political reform coming from people who are not expendable/replaceable in the way peasants and manual labourers are and also have friends and familiy amongst junior officers in the army. Eventually the top dogs are faced with the prospect of either:
1. Giving in to demands for democratization, while keeping their wealth and being in an entrenched position to still be major players in politics.
2. Risk a Civil War they might well loose and will see their countries economy wrecked even if they win.

You don't need to be some idealistic reformer to prefer option one.

Or it could go the syria route so dont be too sure about it going democratic and liberal or ask china on how to maintaine power.

 

[Whiteshore]

So, what do you say about the possibility of the various dialects/varieties of Arabic being percieved as different languages as different from one another as the Romance languages are when this thing ends?

 

[MusuMankata]

I get the impression that Italy's king was basically a puppet of Mussolini. So I don't know what influence the Savoys could have.

IOTL, at any time, Vittorio Emanuele III could've told Mussolini to resign, in a clause that Mussolini himself wrote, and realistically the king would've been sure that he'd be obeyed, by hook or by crook, since a good deal of the armed forces were loyal to him, not to Mussolini.

There's no indication that this clause wasn't written when Mussolini ascended to power ITTL, so it's possible that a headstrong Umberto II could tell Mussolini's successor to step down and leave posthaste, the question would then become if the Regio Esercito is loyal to the King or to the Party. Given how TTL went, it could go either way.

 

[Bookmark1995]

IOTL, at any time, Vittorio Emanuele III could've told Mussolini to resign, in a clause that Mussolini himself wrote, and realistically the king would've been sure that he'd be obeyed, by hook or by crook, since a good deal of the armed forces were loyal to him, not to Mussolini.

There's no indication that this clause wasn't written when Mussolini ascended to power ITTL, so it's possible that a headstrong Umberto II could tell Mussolini's successor to step down and leave posthaste, the question would then become if the Regio Esercito is loyal to the King or to the Party. Given how TTL went, it could go either way.

The issue TTL is that fascism....works.

It is a brutal, cruel, and mean system that while not as systematically murderous as Nazism, still places national identity above human dignity.

But Italian fascism has won the prestige that it didn't have OTL. OTL, the Italians threw Mussolini out once their cities fell to Allied bombing.

TTL, Italian armies have played a role in the downfall of an even more insane ideology, not to mention an incredible act of humanitarianism toward one of the world's most oppressed peoples. The loyalties Italians have for Il Duce is most likely genuine, because fascism has triumphed in several major wars.

Umberto certainly does have the right to dismiss whoever Mussolini's successor is and he could potentially become the ITTL Juan Carlos. But the army ITTL will likely have genuine respect for Mussolini, since ITTL he wasn't the failure who became a German puppet, but the man who led them to victory after victory and made Italy a major power. If Umberto wants to change the system, the army might need to have a word with him.

 

[Deleted member 109224]

The issue TTL is that fascism....works.

It is a brutal, cruel, and mean system that while not as systematically murderous as Nazism, still places national identity above human dignity.

But Italian fascism has won the prestige that it didn't have OTL. OTL, the Italians threw Mussolini out once their cities fell to Allied bombing.

TTL, Italian armies have played a role in the downfall of an even more insane ideology, not to mention an incredible act of humanitarianism toward one of the world's most oppressed peoples. The loyalties Italians have for Il Duce is most likely genuine, because fascism has triumphed in several major wars.

Umberto certainly does have the right to dismiss whoever Mussolini's successor is and he could potentially become the ITTL Juan Carlos. But the army ITTL will likely have genuine respect for Mussolini, since ITTL he wasn't the failure who became a German puppet, but the man who led them to victory after victory and made Italy a major power. If Umberto wants to change the system, the army might need to have a word with him.

Elements of the Italian Military OTL contemplated creating a neo-fascist state, and this was after they lost the war. TTL, having won the thing, they'd probably be even more enthusiastic about the system.