The Footprint of Mussolini - TL

I would like to read a tl where USA loses one of the world wars

A Shift in Priorities: USA send troops to France but too late and France surrends and United Kingdom makes peace with Germany.

The Anglo/American-Nazi War: Nazis defeat Soviets and Germany makes some deal with WAllies altough there is warm war several years before it escalates as hot war.

Just wondering would this TL see many Nazi victory TLs when it seemed begin even more difficult.

Another in-the-universe question about WW2: If Hitler decide that not attack Italy would Italy had jumped to WW2 anyway?
 
Another in-the-universe question about WW2: If Hitler decide that not attack Italy would Italy had jumped to WW2 anyway?
Probably later as Mussolini always wanted a seat at the victory table, although with a later entry Italy's contribution would be far less and therefore they get less perks in the peace deal.
 
I would like to read a tl where USA loses one of the world wars
The problem there for WWI is that a USA loss isn't likely to cause nearly as many problems as being on the losing side for one of the European powers in the war. Even if the USA were to join the side of the *Central* powers and lose, the Entente would, IMO, take no more than Alaska, Hawaii and the Philippines. They are *not* going to take Michigan.

And the USA on the losing side in WWII is simply a Nazi Victorious world. Japan *completely* lacks the industrial plant to beat the USA. Heck, *Asia* at that point lacks the Industrial Plant to beat the USA. If ASB made every person living in Asia on January 1, 1940 completely supportive of the Japanese Government, they *might* have the industrial plant to beat the USA.
 
A Shift in Priorities: USA send troops to France but too late and France surrends and United Kingdom makes peace with Germany.

The Anglo/American-Nazi War: Nazis defeat Soviets and Germany makes some deal with WAllies altough there is warm war several years before it escalates as hot war.

Just wondering would this TL see many Nazi victory TLs when it seemed begin even more difficult.

Another in-the-universe question about WW2: If Hitler decide that not attack Italy would Italy had jumped to WW2 anyway?
AANW does not really count as the US "losing" the war however.
Indeed, while it is very possible to have a "World war" which the US lose, it is very hard to see how they could actually lose either of the historical world wars (though certainly they could be aligned to the overall losing side, as in "A Shift in Priorities" albeit I am not sure how plausible that particular TL is). The strategic realities in both wars heavily favoured the US, for the simple reason that their main opponents (Germany and Japan) had no meaningful way to damage the basis American industrial and demographic strength, while the US clearly could get at Germany and Japan.
The easiest path for American "defeat" would probably be just not fighting.
 
AANW does not really count as the US "losing" the war however.
Indeed, while it is very possible to have a "World war" which the US lose, it is very hard to see how they could actually lose either of the historical world wars (though certainly they could be aligned to the overall losing side, as in "A Shift in Priorities" albeit I am not sure how plausible that particular TL is). The strategic realities in both wars heavily favoured the US, for the simple reason that their main opponents (Germany and Japan) had no meaningful way to damage the basis American industrial and demographic strength, while the US clearly could get at Germany and Japan.
The easiest path for American "defeat" would probably be just not fighting.
And the only way (with a 20th century POD) to damage a significant part of the US Industrial Plant with Early-Mid 20th Century technology would be bombing from Canada, so you'd need an Enemy Canada backed up by the Industrial might of Europe and troops *and* with the ability to Supply it.

In that Regards, with of course a 19th century POD, Turtledove probably had the most likely Scenario for such a WWII. USA/Germany/AH vs. CSA/UK/France/Russia.
 
And the only way (with a 20th century POD) to damage a significant part of the US Industrial Plant with Early-Mid 20th Century technology would be bombing from Canada, so you'd need an Enemy Canada backed up by the Industrial might of Europe and troops *and* with the ability to Supply it.

In that Regards, with of course a 19th century POD, Turtledove probably had the most likely Scenario for such a WWII. USA/Germany/AH vs. CSA/UK/France/Russia.
With a 20th century POD, such a Canada is unlikely to last very long. The US are going to invade and take most of it, barring extraordinary circumstances, with ability to put overwhelming force vs. any defense the British and their eventual allies can put up.
I am under the impression that Imperial British military planning in the (admittedly unlikely) event of war with US more or less wrote off most of Canada as simply indefensible (I suppose that could hold Halifax?).
Of course, that would require a World War very different from the historical ones anyway, with different alliances and strategies modified accordingly.
The US could "lose" such a war in the right situation, though most realistic scenarios on such a premise are probably more akin to "stalemate".
 

Deleted member 109224

I would like to read a tl where USA loses one of the world wars

In the Rise and Fall of Great Powers, Kennedy said the US had some 40% of global warmaking capacity at the start of WWII.

It's not impossible that the US could be defeated, but it'd be very difficult. You'd need the rest of the world united against the US.


Maybe in a Confederate Victory TL the US could be pinned between British/Canadians in the North, Imperial Mexicans in the Southwest, and Confederates in the southeast, but that's a bit different.
 
So before this thread goes completely off the rails, I must say a few things...

First...Jesus Christ, I still feel like this is a d***-measuring contest to see which TL (between this and 2 Japans, 2 Chinas) gets more dank.

Secondly, I really hope that Civil Rights turn out much better than OTL, despite it being a lot more bloodier than OTL.

Thirdly, Aflaq's going to get whacked, it's pretty much as clear as day.

and Finally, are we certain Balbo's going to get the Duce job once Mussolini dies?
 
So are we going start beting if Nukes Will be utses against the arabs in the war i give 10 for mecca and medina beacuse it might with loss of Jerusalem break their spirit permanently until a decade or two they probaly ful jihad and fail again only much worse.
 
So are we going start beting if Nukes Will be utses against the arabs in the war i give 10 for mecca and medina beacuse it might with loss of Jerusalem break their spirit permanently until a decade or two they probaly ful jihad and fail again only much worse.

I doubt that even Italians dare do that. Nuking holiest cities of Islam would piss off not only all Muslims but Western democracies too. Riyadh might be possible but not sure if even that is probable.
 
I doubt that even Italians dare do that. Nuking holiest cities of Islam would piss off not only all Muslims but Western democracies too. Riyadh might be possible but not sure if even that is probable.
Agreed. IF nukes are used against the Arab alliance, they are unlikely to be used against Mecca or Medina. Strategic targets in Syria, Iraq, or Egypt are possibilities (still horrible) but the holiness of the holy cities is likely to be respected.
Nuking Mecca would make no military sense whatsoever, and this is not supposed to be a religious war. Turkey is a very important partner for the alliance against Aflaq, and, however secular, it is still a Muslim country. They will clearly oppose such a move, and I suppose they will be consulted (otherwise, they would be alienated, and they are a signficant power within the RA).
Italian Fascism ITTL is certainly ruthless, but it is rational*.

*"Rational Fascism" is, strictly speaking, a contradiction in terms, for the simple reason that Fascism, as an ideology, explicitly rejects rational thinking as the main valid tool for decision making. They revel in contradiction and are supposedly proud of it. However, Fascists are human beings, and, as such, are able to make decisions based on rational assessments of realities (and did that historically, sometimes).
 
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I doubt that even Italians dare do that. Nuking holiest cities of Islam would piss off not only all Muslims but Western democracies too. Riyadh might be possible but not sure if even that is probable.

If the Italians are going to use a nuke, which I am not sure will happen, I expect Baghdad to be the target. I highly doubt their arsenal is flush so they will want the biggest payoff and even then be sparing with the USSR elephant in the room.
 
Agreed. IF nukes are used against the Arab alliance, they are unlikely to be used against Mecca or Medina. Strategic targets in Syria, Iraq, or Egypt are possibilities (still horrible) but the holiness of the holy cities is likely to be respected.
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Yeah I cant see the Italians and friends bombing places of religious significance. However I can see them tearing up cities of cultural significance like they did with Slovenia and Ljubljana.
 
There's also Nasser to consider. The man has his own operation going in Egypt even if on paper he answers to Aflaq. Between Israel and Libya would he pull he trigger when Aflaq says go or throw up his hands and say "I'm not with him." Sure he rode to power on the Baathist wave, but he's had years to build his own cult of personality and may decide a mini civil war is less risky than fighting the West and Fascists without the Soviets. And the text says he cares more for Egyptian identity than the wider Arab identity.

Hmm, might the Soviets even approach him with an offer of protection if they get some forewarning of Aflaq's plans? Hoping to salvage something from the coming disaster?

I am no expect on Nasser though. Would he follow Aflaq into the Abyss for the cause?
 
Nasser may very well betray Aflaq if the situation calls for it in real life he was The first Arab leader to recognize Israel so that shows that he can be flexible. The second question is a lot more situational depending on who is dominant in the Soviet union at the time in the tri Power structure.
 
If the Italians are going to use a nuke, which I am not sure will happen, I expect Baghdad to be the target. I highly doubt their arsenal is flush so they will want the biggest payoff and even then be sparing with the USSR elephant in the room.

Not sure if Italians are nuking anything in Iraq or Syria. Fallout might affect too badly for Turkey and Israel. And Brits hardly are happy too. Baghdad mihgt see massive bombing anyway.

There's also Nasser to consider. The man has his own operation going in Egypt even if on paper he answers to Aflaq. Between Israel and Libya would he pull he trigger when Aflaq says go or throw up his hands and say "I'm not with him." Sure he rode to power on the Baathist wave, but he's had years to build his own cult of personality and may decide a mini civil war is less risky than fighting the West and Fascists without the Soviets. And the text says he cares more for Egyptian identity than the wider Arab identity.

Hmm, might the Soviets even approach him with an offer of protection if they get some forewarning of Aflaq's plans? Hoping to salvage something from the coming disaster?

I am no expect on Nasser though. Would he follow Aflaq into the Abyss for the cause?

I don't know how Nasser might work on coming war but if he feels that this war is not winnable he won't hesitate any moment with pushing Aflaq under a bus. Egypt-Soviet relationships depend totally who is top guy on Kreml after SAW. And USSR is anyway weaker nation than in OTL due smaller East Block and not so great relationships between Soviets and other blocks.
 
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On the one hand, the next great dictator giving an interview to a BBC documentary is unlikely, unless he has decided to retire and pass the mantle along after a decade or so in power. On the other, he is probably the most qualified person to assume leadership, especially if Mussolini kicks the bucket while there's a war on. Unless maybe Balbo is pretty much at the front when the big guy croaks and Ciano (or someone else?) steps into the Duce role while Balbo is busy.

An interesting prospect might be if while the top fascists are either busy with the war or busy squabbling, Prince Amedeo 'temporarily' assumed the position of Duce. He does have his competent handling of Ethiopia and his military hero father's reputation to stand on.

Edit:
My two cents on the 'America is getting off lightly' topic is thus: To me, what matters is the internal consistency and believability of this timeline. One might look at the devastation wrought in Slovenia, China or Poland, the partition of Japan and the even worse terror wrought by stalinism across the soviet bloc and conclude from that that the USA is doing great.

However, the fascist powers are doing far better in this timeline than in any other I have read, this after all being an Italy-wank. India might have had a more bloody decolonisation, but from the looks of things they will build on it, their close ties with the west in general and the British empire (the negative feelings the Indians would have towards the British ameliorated greatly by Operation Atman) to take the place China did OTL, as the power due to rise to the top in the 21st century. Britain is doing slightly better, not as economically ruined by the war as the OTL Britscrew, allowed to decolonize at their own pace and it appears retaining a larger commonwealth. France is more or less on par.

The USA is doing somwhat worse than OTL - aside from the bloodier if earlier civil rights issue, they were not able to get their hands on as much of the economic possessions of the colonial powers, carrying the fiscal burden for many of the post-colonial conflicts and bleeding great buckets of blood in China to defeat Mao. Their international diplomatic prestige is still low, although after Patton the prestige and apparent competence of the American military will probably be far above any point in OTL. They have far less soft power, but at this point only the most insane of people would want to be on the other side in any war. I am sure there are other countries in this timeline who, with all the changes weighed in the balance, are doing only slightly worse, like the USA.
 
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No, we are not.

We only know Balbo is alive in the 70s and can give an interview where he can defend the genocide in Slovenia.

Sorairo wrote that Balbo was chosen over Ciano as Mussolini's succesor due to Ciano supporting the Italian Monarchy.
 
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