Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by Sorairo, Feb 20, 2019.
Surely there is not any sympathy towards Arabs when they tried Holocaust 3.0.
Holocaust 3.0 seriously how many freaking people want to kill the bloody jew i mean it hasent worked before do they think that this is going to work beacuse why?
The Mafia and Malcolm Little versus the Klan? That really does put a grin on my face.
So race war in the South then ah shit
I feel like the Wehrmacht traditions will largely outright survive - as in uniform and that sort of stuff.
I mean, much of the Wehrmacht revolt when they got ditched in favor of the ss during the civil war, so they will have a better reputation and clean wehrmacht will likely sadly be even more widespread.
So I think the West German Kingdom will in essence use the same style but with imperial symbolism.
Think uniform changes akin to this:
OTL there was no army revolt minus a coup plot, in this much of the senior officers revolt and while they will still have to undergo denazification, likely imperial heritage and prussian heritage will survive in my opinion (slightly ironic since Prussia is still lost)
Edit: Also note that Erwin Rommel literally defected, so that might be a good canon portrait of him as the new commander on the top. I think the Wehrmacht revolt will lead to more acceptance of their doctrine to an extent, and it is likely with the revolt the waffenrock and stahlhelm will not be solely associated with nazism. Though the stahlhelm might go with time, though it did after all influence the pasgt helmet most armies still use to this day so West Germany may keep that, at the very least for parade. I don't know about the iron cross, but that has roots within Hohenzoller Germany so that might also survive. Swastika and any SS symbolism will surely remain taboo though.
@Sorairo Man, i passed the last two weeks reading your story and it's incredible. It''s very readaable and the form that you write makes every chapter like an real (and pretty good) history book. You made me cry (more than once) with this history
And like many here, i'm eagerly wanting more
I thought it was said this was a misconception? The majority of the Wehrmacht did not revolt. Beck's Government in Hamburg was only able to survive as long as it did because of civilian backing for the Mutineers ironically including banned groups like the Socialists going to the Barricades with the mutineers.
Most of the Wehrmacht remained loyal with the Western Front unraveling from defections in the Rommel fashion rather than mutiny; and a good bit of that is credited to self preservation with Himmler going purge happy on the Wehrmacht and Rommel's treatment giving them an exit strategy. And the Soviet front didn't see that even.
So in the end the Civil War was only a potent minority of the Wehrmacht. But I agree the misconception could lead to a good deal of the Wehrmacht tradition surviving in the revived Imperial German military. At least until decades down the line as scholarship discrediting the Clean Wehrmacht idea starts penetrating the media more.
This has been a pretty good read so far
Keep it up
A thought: With Rommel being from Württenberg by birth, that also being where the Hohenzollerns first rose from and Bavaria being intact, might German uniforms ITTL assume more elements from the southern states historical militaries? Both Bavaria and Württenberg used to have blue jackets with grey, blue or white trousers and a large black plume on their helm/hat. Replacing some of the nazi-touched elements of the German uniforms with these might symbolize a clean cut while still respecting one's traditions.
I do wonder now if Degrelle was in charge of German occupied Belgium ITTL. Also I now wonder as to the fate of Anton Mussert.
I think my point still stands. While eventually Clean Wehrmacht might get discredited (much later though) it is likely that the German army will nonetheless keep the style of the Wehrmacht regardless, as it won't be discredited to such a level that the Bundeswehr gets changed to otl extents. I am thinking the German army marches today in this timeline will look like Chile army marches, or sweden army marches, both of which continued the imperial style. That and the Hohenzoller monarchs might want to show their heritage to an extent, despite losing Prussia.
That probably won't happen, simply because while Rommel is from Wurtberg, this Prussian style uniform is really the only one he has ever known, and due to the Wehrmacht revolt/Hohenzoller monarch germany, it might not be as symbolic of the nazi regime in this timeline, with a much more extensive clean wehrmacht myth and Hohenzoller monarchs likely preferring the imperial style to remain intact.
Edit: Although on another note; you may be correct being open minded and such, I could see perhaps de nazification mean more Southern Heritage being rediscovered in this timeline. Though the uniforms would still retain Prussian influence to an extent, lip
service may be payed to the Southern States style: maybe like this ^
Probably more similar to Waffenrock though.
My idea: the collor of the Wehrmacht, the color of the Southern States, as well as maybe similar headgear for ceremonial marches, however I do think much Prussian influence will be retained despite the ironic loss of Prussia itself, the Hohenzoller will still likely retain pride in their heritage and try to reclaim it from its dark nazi past.
So I think the Waffenrock will survive in west germany in this timeline, with perhaps the stahlhelm either highly altered or still replaced with the M1 helmet and delegated to parades.
I noticed that the fictional book that covers post-Stalin URSS is called False Hope. I think is implied that things really go badly for the Soviet Union but the thing: who on the Soviet Union has the potential to be as bad or even worse than Stalin?
Perhaps Mikhail Suslov? He was one of Stalin's most loyal and closest allies. Perhaps Krushchev tries some small reforms but not total de-stalinisation like in OTL. Probably truth about Stalin's last moments and Krushchev's visitation on Stalin's room moment of his deasth is somehow leaked and Suslov oust the Troika. Krushchev is probably executed but not sure what would happen to Malenkov. We already know that Molotov lives long time so probably he is sent to gulag or sent to very minor office to Central Asia.
I found this copypasta. Think it suits here:
A revolutionary, democratic, Ethiopian lover professor and Anti-Fascist was giving teaching a class on Gramsci, known Marxist. "Now before class starts today, you must get on your knees and worship Antonio Gramsci and accept he is the greatest Italian, more so than Mussolini himself!"
At this moment, a brave, Fascist, courageous young Blackshirt who had taken part on the Italo-Ethiopian War and had killed over 5000 rebel fighters and understood the necessity of the Totalitarian State and fully supported all the political decisions of the PNF stood up and held up a bundle of sticks.
"Professor, what is this?"
The arrogant professor smirked quite liberally and replied smugly "It's just a bunch of sticks, you dumb hardliner."
"Wrong, it isn't just a bundle of sticks, it's a Fascio, representing the unity of the Italian people. If you don't see that... you're just a partisan."
The professor was visibly shaken, and dropped his chalk and copy of the Manifesto of the Anti-Fascist Intellectuals. He stormed out of the room crying those crocodile democratic tears, the same tears those treachrous reformers cry for "oppressed Greeks" (Who live in such luxury that they are not gassed like in Germany ) when they try to push for free elections and universal voting rights. There is no doubt that at this point our professor, Bagdolio, wish he had fled to France in 1922. He wished so much he had mustard gas to gas himself, but he himself had banned the Army from using it on Rebels!
The students all applauded, joined the Opera Nazionale Ballila to fight for the Glory of Fascism and accepted Mussolini as the new Agustus Ceaser. An Eagle named "Italia Irredenta" flew into the room and perched atop the Italian Tricolor and shed a tear on the chalk. "Giovenezza" was sung various times and Giovanni Gentile himself descended from the heavens to smite all the non-PNF Members in the Empire.
The professor lost his tenure and was executed by some OVRA Agents who did nothing wrong the next day.
His name was struck from the university's list for his disloyalty to the Grand Council and his money was taken to fight the colonial wars.
Viva Il Duce
I think it may not be that the unknown leader is worse than Stalin as he has less to squander with the USSR still in poor straits. So it may be more the wrong person at the wrong time than being worse than Stalin.
I saw on the updates that even Macartonio, the Progressive US Candidate, was sent to the Gulags on 1957. Considering that even Stalin allowed them to survive, the guy in charge at the time must be kinda of nuts
He could be a Gorbachev: a man who trashes the system while trying to save it.
A period of hope followed by a period of anarchy.
I guarantee you, the moment you start having Black Militias like the Black Panthers arming up, you are going to scare a lot of normally Liberal White folks across the North and West into the arms of the Freedom Party. There are inevitably going to be black militias that draw no distinction between those Whites that support Civil Rights and those opposed, and those are the ones that will make the news and inevitably poison the movement amongst the public at large. It especially becomes something of a self-fulfilling prophecy if there is an attempt to disarm any of these militias, and somewhat predictably they refuse, resulting in a violent stand-off.
Now this does cut both ways, but historically attempts amongst African Americans to establish "Community Defense Groups" have never gone well, and they'd inevitably be set up in the North and West as well where they've had grievances with law enforcement, meaning even more can go wrong on their side from a public relations standpoint. The Black Panther Party is the best example of what I'm thinking in terms of a case study of what might happen here, the caveat being that it as a whole doesn't die off given its perceived necessity amongst African-Americans; I say "as a whole" as inevitably you'd still have conflicts in terms of ideology and how best to approach matters much as the actual BPP did, resulting in rival organizations establishing themselves in different parts of the country, some with better reputations then most.
Separate names with a comma.