The Footprint of Mussolini - TL

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by Sorairo, Feb 20, 2019.

  1. marathag Well-Known Member

    Feb 2, 2013
    Even on the 1930s, US Oilmen, from the Majors down to small Wildcatters, swarmed around the Globe, even the USSR till the Purges got rolling, for the search for Oil.

    But not in the Italian Sphere, as far as I have been able to ascertain.

    Wasn't the only US sector, either. Italy was about the only country to make business difficult enough to close down operations for FoMoCo.

    Yeah, Henry Ford, who could make deals with both the Nazis and Communists, and even Japan, gave up under the restrictions that FIAT was able to lobby for.

    Same for most other US manufacturers.

    That push Italy had for self sufficiency and Autarky did not help, and I don't really see a way around that.
  2. Sorairo Well-Known Member

    Aug 9, 2016
    1) I’m confused by your question. The Italian fleet has barely been in service and the country is fighting into its logistical centre, not to mention it has full access to world markets.

    2) The oil has not been extracted yet.

    3) Mussolini will not do something that will needlessly offend the Conservative elite he needs to keep power by making such an obvious challenge to the king.

    4) The Italians beat the Germans because they were cooperating with multiple countries, fighting on home turf, had an opponent overwhelmed on countless fronts, a German war plan devoted to murdering Jews rather than gaining military victory and a fresh but experienced army. Mussolini didn’t sell Libyan oil to Hitler because he had none but he did commerce with Hitler until the end. He exited neutrality because Hitler attacked him.
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  3. ghilonif Well-Known Member

    Nov 4, 2017
    I think, even without the Hungarian Jews stand in Trieste, the Italian army would eventually be able to stop an invasion from the agonizing Wehrmacht, considering it was said in 1940 OTL that Italy needed at least two years to be ready. But without the Hungarian jews question, there would never have been a point to the invasion. All in all it seems there aren't any problems on how the Triestingrado goes.
  4. lukedalton Well-Known Member

    Dec 13, 2009
    North Italy
    Being first neutral and later a member of the allies mean that a lot of logistic problem have been solved as they can get it on the market unlike OTL were we get only a part of romanian oil
  5. ghilonif Well-Known Member

    Nov 4, 2017
    Also, having three years, aside from balkan distractions, led to a more suited Air force, with more refined projects. The army had the time to completely switch to 7.35, and in general there was time to reconsider what worked and what didn't (MAB good, Breda 30 very bad and so on).
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  6. Evil Crusader Well-Known Member

    May 18, 2016
    Italian Riviera
    He wouldn't be able or willing to oust Vittorio Emanuele III (too entrenched and the Army is ultimately loyal to him), but he'll probably keep up the OTL slander campaign against the future Umberto II in order to prepare a future showdown. Mussolini has enough legitimacy though,

    1942 Italy would have completed her upgrades; being perceived as a (low tier) Great Power on her own all the while. Why would other Powers help strengthen a potential, non-allied, rivals? Would a Power admitting to be weak still be respected? That idea really only works in hindsight.
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  7. Basileus_Komnenos Well-Known Member

    Dec 20, 2018
    Maybe after the war with the Libyan oil discovered, and the Greater Italy idea implemented with Libya Italy rapidly develops. Perhaps it recieves subsidies from America to withstand Communism or it becomes a major player in Europe as all the other Great Powers were wrecked by the war. If Italy keeps Fermi and uses Jewish scientists that fled Germany maybe they can develop the bomb early to secure their place in the post war order with Africa in their sphere of influence.
  8. Adelkman Well-Known Member

    Apr 25, 2018
    Right. OTL, Mussolini said to Hitler he was waiting the death of the king before declaring the republic, counting of the old age of Victor Emmanuel III. The king then died in 1948, outliving Mussolini.
    I think the Duce will try to remove Umberto II, but the heir of Italy had a close relationship with the heir of fascism, Ciano. Ciano was subservient of Mussolini, but only up to a point (OTL he was among those who voted the oust of Mussolini during the "Ordine del giorno Grandi").

    Yeah, without jew discrimination, Fermi and the Via Panisperna boys would not have to emigrate, or at least, they would had fewer reasons. Though, a nuclear programme was mighty expensive. Roughly, 1 billion dollars? That's 20 billions italian lire c.a. Also, where do they get enough fissile matter? I don't thing Belgium, the US or the Commonwealth would sale their reserves. There's some thorium deposits in south Somalia and it's speculated that there's some small reserves of uranium in south Libya (Aouzou Strip, where in OTL was fought the Toyota War). If Italy get it's hands of those deposit, it would not be enough to build a nuclear arsenal, even a small one. Maybe a couple of fission bombs and a dozen of "nuclear grenades" (W54 warhead stile, dangerously "easy" to use) in the '50, then something bigger in the '60-'70.

    Just another question. Is Majorana still in Italy or he has already escaped to Venezuela?
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  9. Threadmarks: The Jester Takes the Crown

    Sorairo Well-Known Member

    Aug 9, 2016
    The Jester takes the Crown

    The Second World War – Christopher Armlong

    News of Rommel’s defection hit Germany like a thunderbolt. That their hero, the man who had so gallantly saved them repeatedly in Russia, who had taken over France without a sweat and had given the Allies bloody nose after bloody nose in Normandy had switched sides was incomprehensible. The initial reaction of the Himmler government was to deny it, which was quickly disproven by pictures of Rommel and Patton shaking hands. From there, Goebbels was given his toughest assignment to date – making the Germans hate Rommel.

    Goebbels accused Rommel of “succumbing to ego”, “spitting on the graves of his dead soldiers” and “wishing the rape of every German women to the Jew and Russian savages”. It left little to the imagination, but it had little effect. Most Germans had little hatred of the Americans, British or Italians. They were, however, terrified of the Jewish and Soviet soldiers in the East. For that reason, Churchill would forbid the Jewish Army advancing any closer to Germany than liberating Prague, which it did by mid-July. [1] For that reason, Rommel’s defection was seen in a much more forgiving light.

    Rommel would have little front-line command, but his very presence was a game-changer. He had formed a new army, mostly consisting of soldiers who fought on the side of the Valkyrie Coup in the ‘Free German Army’, which quickly grew to about 20,000 men once resolved Anti-Nazis joined in. The ranks continued to grow daily – some Nazis even joining to ‘get this over before Stalin makes a corpse of our country’ said one. By Summer, almost three quarters of Wehrmacht troops would surrender to the Allies without a fight. The only trouble the Allies faced were the SS and Wehrmacht loyalists, the latter being particularly troublesome in that some would feign surrender and launch surprise attacks.

    Nevertheless, by mid-July, Patton had crossed the Rhine. The bridges had been preserved by Wehrmacht troops who had defected owing to Rommel’s own defection. The Soviets continue to struggle against the Germans in Poland, but Patton had his eyes on the prize, not that it was easy to convince the President to keep going.

    The Madhouse: Germany After Hitler, Before the Occupation, by Ronald Hines

    Perhaps the greatest indicator of the mental state of Berlin in 1944 was the faux Trial of Rommel. It consisted of a framed picture of the Field Marshall on a chair in front of Reich Judge Roland Freisler. Freisler berated the inanimate object as if it was Rommel himself and sentenced Rommel to death. A squad of SS members proceeded to grab the picture and smash it on the ground. Perhaps the most interesting thing about this event was the relative indifference the people of Berlin felt given the insanity surrounding them.

    Himmler, who had already begun the pointless task of trying to destroy evidence of the Final Solution, decided that the Wehrmacht was simply too dangerous to the health of the state and began a round of Stalin-based purges, even those who weren’t in the army at the time. Walter Von Brauchitsch found himself dragged from his house in the night and shot against the wall despite being in enforced retirement simply due to his historic disagreements with Hitler. Von Rundstedt luckily got word and defected to the West before anything could happen while Kesselring surrendered to the Italians and Von Kluge was safely in Hamburg. Georg Von Küchler and Fedor Von Bock were not so lucky and were both discreetly executed before being replaced by SS hacks. Only Model and Von Leeb were truly prized, as their historic enthusiasm for the Nazi Party line, especially when it came to Jews, was their salvation. Even still Von Leeb was given a fake execution to scare him into compliance. As Goebbels said ‘The ‘Von’ is our enemy’. This ignored the rather obvious fact that Rommel was not a ‘Von’. Himmler ordered his men to prepare a defence of the Reich from the ‘Satanic Babylon of Nations’ as Goebbels called it on the radio.

    Everyone was conscripted down to pre-teens and men who were alive when Prussia wasn’t just a province. Street executions of ‘deserters’, ‘race-traitors’, ‘Judaists’ and a host of other charges were as daily a part of life in Berlin as going to the store for bread. It is estimated that there was, on average, a public execution in Berlin every day for the Summer, owing to Himmler’s belief that this would ‘put steel in our bellies’. Needless to say, supplies were getting scarce, though anyone who attempted to leave Berlin, had to have a very good reason unless they wanted to be put up against a wall. This was Total War, and the bombing runs from American, British and by now even Italian planes were increasing. Some cities declared for the Hamburg Government after Rommel’s defection for no other reason than to spare them from bombing runs. With the Jewish Army marching through Czechoslovakia, Dresden was terrified at the prospect of being in the crossfire. The army executed the SS officials and Nazi leaders in the town and declared that Dresden was an open city. Himmler ordered Dresden to be “blasted to rubble” but only after Berlin was upheld against ‘the Cowboy and the Traitor’, by which he meant Patton and Rommel. This would ultimately mean the salvation of ‘Germany’s Venice’, as it was known.

    Patton raced through Germany as quick as his supplies could take him. “He’s learned well from me,” joked Rommel, as Patton cut a swathe right through the heart of Germany, with only one target: the one target that would cause so much grief for everyone.

    The Dark Decade: America in the 40s by Wendy Walters

    The fight over Rommel’s involvement in the Allies was to have at least one major casualty. Roosevelt and Churchill would furiously argue, with the former believing that Rommel was just an opportunist looking to escape the collapse of the Reich while Churchill seemed willing to give him a shot. The impasse was only broken when Patton demanded Rommel be brought onto the Allied side. Faced with the overwhelmingly popular Patton threatening to resign if Rommel would be kept in a camp for the whole rest of the War, Roosevelt finally relented.

    Roosevelt had a troubled few years. His collapse in his relationship with Churchill had affected him and he could feel a layer of coldness between them. The introduction of Mussolini into the Allied fold had made him bitter and resentful, especially when Churchill was seen as getting close to him. After the exhausting Kiev Conference and subsequent fights with Churchill, Roosevelt would grow more and more withdrawn. Historians generally believe that the collapse in his personal relationships and much heightened stress would be the ultimate contributors to his death.

    After discovering what was being done in Auschwitz, he issued a press release on June 6th detailing his disgust. After discussing the matters with his generals on June 7th, he called the meeting short and said he was feeling sick due to all the suffering he was now privy too, thus going to bed. However, on the morning of June 8th, staff noticed that he hadn’t arisen. When doctors investigated, they had concluded he had died of a gigantic cerebral hemorrhage in his sleep. That morning, Vice-President Henry Wallace was whisked to the White House and given the Oath. Though he didn’t want it to be like this, there was no other way around it. He was now the 33rd President of the United States of America. It would be the beginning of some of the most troubled years in America since the Civil War.

    [1] And of course, that the feared the fury of having discovered Auschwitz could lead to reprisals on the civilian population
  10. EddyBoulevard Your friendly suicide bomber Banned

    Nov 28, 2018
    Davao City, Philippines
    Oh man, this gon' be good
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  11. Darth_Kiryan The Númenorean Sith

    Jan 9, 2010
    Man, Wallace is more pro-Soviet Union than Roosevelt.....
    this can be an amazing clusterfuck than anything else.
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  12. ghilonif Well-Known Member

    Nov 4, 2017
    And with one of the weirdest WW2 timeliness I've ever seen almost coming to an end, I can only wait for an even more weird multipolar cold War.
  13. Icedaemon Well-Known Member

    Jul 5, 2016
    I wonder what Rommel will want at the end of the war and how much can he get it.
  14. raffaele gaggioli Well-Known Member

    Jul 28, 2017
    I am surprised that Himmler hasn't already ordered the use of chemical weapons against the Allies,considering the level of insanity he is already showing as acting Fuhrer.
    Also i have just thought this: if the war in Europe ends before the creation of the atomic bomb, Wallace may be forced to start Operation Overlord, meaning that the war in the Pacific will be even longer and more violent than OTL and Japan may end up divided between the URSS and the USA.
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  15. ghilonif Well-Known Member

    Nov 4, 2017
    Yes, Himmler at this point should use chemical weapons, he hadn't the psychological restriction of Hitler.
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  16. Sam R. Well-Known Member

    May 11, 2011
    Fluff pro-soviet. Imagine Australian Medicare (ala 1986) or NHS in the US. Imagine denticare in the US. Imagine the majority of the US population being eligible for treatment for conditions based on their eligibility to reproduce capital through wage labour.

    Basically imagine the Labour manifesto 1945 being relevant to the US.

    40 years later.

    multiple US post strikes as a leading State industry. Doesn't even have to hit air traffic controllers.\

    Sam R.
  17. marathag Well-Known Member

    Feb 2, 2013
    To be fair, not so much as after he got booted from the VP slot where a lot of 'Fellow Travellers' surrounded him. He really was one of those Useful Idiots.

    He seemed to conflate Communism with the Co-ops he dealt with back in Iowa.

    In 1944, it seemed his desegregationist views were far more dangerous to the Southern Democrats than his views on the USSR.

    He was an Idealist, who honestly wanted to get along with everyone, but given the choice, would look out for the 'little guy' rather than the CEO of a conglomeration.
  18. Adelkman Well-Known Member

    Apr 25, 2018
    Wait. If Roosevelt died in june '44, then there're still the november '44 elections and the july '44 democratic convention to hold. Do we really believe that Wallace would win when all his enemies in the party had already polled together to defeat him because was an anti-segregationist, accused of being pro-soviet and had an unorthodox view about religion. Do we really believe he will be nominated?

    EDIT: some grammar.
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
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  19. marathag Well-Known Member

    Feb 2, 2013
    Since he was actually President, they wouldn't have much choice.

    At that point, it would take that old 'dead girl or live boy' to derail him.

    He was still very popular in 1944
  20. Vornado Well-Known Member

    Jul 10, 2014
    Fun fact about Henry Wallace, his grandson, Scott Wallace, just lost a congressional race in Pennsylvania's first district last year.
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2019