The flower of Innovation Japan modernizes 3 centuries early v2.0

So as you know a while back I made a Japanese rises three centuries earlier timeline. However it turned out to not be very plausible due to the fact that Korea was no able to be taken easily by japan and that western tactics would not work in Korea. So here is the l revised, it will remain the same however until the Korean invasion where things will take a drastic change.. I hope you enjoy this tl and here i is. The first post is very long because it will include everything I wrote formerly until the Korean invasion. From their it will diverge.

Chapter I
The fall of Uesugi Kenshin
The year was 1577 Tedori River, Kaga Province Anamizu castle


Cho Shigetsu had heard from his scouts about an advancing army under Uesugi Kenshin. He contemplated what to do, should he launch a surprise attack in the night or hole up in his castle. He knew he Shibata Katsui was one of Nobunagas most able generals and was leading a large relief force. However Cho decided to not take any chances he would launch an assault in the night with everything he had. He son put on his armor and prepared the army of some 15k.

At Useugi camp Uesugi was confident of his victory so he built no real fortification around his camp and as a loyal follower of the Bushido knew that it was cowardly to attack in the night. So he made little preparation and was planning to storm the castle in a couple of days. However he would soon realize how mistaken he was. That night 15k men under Shigetsura launched an assault on Kensin’s camp. The Sentries were shocked although alarms rang out many samurai were still asleep and when they woke up wee very woozy and none had any weapons or armor. Cho and the 15k men launched the assault and soon the whole camp was in flames as Uesugi saw his soldiers cut down. He fought valiantly but it was futile a harquebus shot him in the heart and soon Uesugi fell dead. It was the last blunder he would ever make. Soon Shigetaros soldiers decimated over 15000 troops and took prisoner another 10k while 500 had deserted from Uesugi ranks. It was a complete victory for Cho. When Katsuie heard of the victory he was overjoyed as he related the news to Nobunaga who sighed with relief.
With the fall of Kenshin the Mori clan resistance soon crumbled as Nobunaga and his forces ate them up. With the fall of the Mori clan Nobunaga destroyed the second coalition against him. By 1589 Most of Japan was under his control and only Okinawa and Ryuku were left before Oda would become the complete ruler of Japan. The Shingen clan was executed and with the fall of the shingen clan none dared oppose Nobunaga. So Nobunaga soon became the Shogun of Japan.

“ He who embraces modernization is a genius, He who shuns it a fool”(Oda Nobunaga)


Chapter II the Portuguese-Nipponese Arms agreement
In the year 1592 the Shogun of Japan Oda Nobunaga received emissaries from a strange locking group of people. They were said to be very pale, Intrigued Oda wanted o meet these people. They also had apparently guns that were much more advanced than his harquebus and cannons made of Iron!!! Oda went personally to meet the trading vessel at Toga.


The Portuguese vessel was under the command of captain Manuel Diaz Garcia. He was allowed to land and soon met with the emperor of Japan. Manuel had an interpreter a local who could speak Japanese fluently. . Oda had a meeting with him. Manuel saw Oda and began his speech. “ Oh great Shogun of Japan I come from the lands of Portugal I am here to by orders of my king ton make a trade proposal. Nobunaga halted him in mid sentence.
“ Very well but first I want you to do something for us. Those gun of yours are they powerful.” Manuel smiled
“ Of course they are Muskets the finest in Europe.” Oda smiled
“ Then lets make a deal Manuel. Tell your King this we will only agree to trade proposals if you Portuguese are willing to send advisors to train my army and provide me with these muskets as you call them. In return I will give you whatever you desire. Manuel contemplated for a while and thought what could be the loss. Soon the Portuguese left. Nobunaga smiled, he knew that these strange people evidently were much stronger than him, he was no fool and so he returned to Edo.

In the year 1594 The Kingdom of Portugal and the Oda Shogunate signed the Portugal-Nipponese agreement of mutual benefit. In the treaty Portugal would send the guns and cannon as well as advisers to modernize the Japanese. In return Japan would open up free trade with Portugal and allow Portuguese missionaries to practice on Japanese soil and provide a safe haven for Portuguese ships. However many Japanese were outraged at this treaty. The Shinto priests protested because they did not like this new religion but Oda did not listen to them. In 1595 the Shinto priests launched a rebellion known as the religious revolution. Ieyasu and Katsuo crushed the rebellion and brought the priests to kneel before the shogun of Japan. By 1596 Japan was modernizing quickly as the army was drilled in the art of European warfare and the Portuguese navy trained the Japanese navy. The Portuguese also taught the Japanese how to build galleons, soon the Japanese navy had ten galleons by 1600 and this fleet was outfitted in the European manner. The Portuguese meanwhile made a killing off the spice and other eastern goods, which they bought at cheap prices from Japan making huge profits. Oda knew that Japan needed resources to keep up the gunpowder for his army. Oda decided to test out his new navy and army on the Jurchens a people who inhabited the lands to the west.

In late 1597 the Jurchens had been rising as a power in Northern China. The ming empire was decaying and rapidly crumbling. The Jurchens were a group of nomadic tribes but were united by Nurhaki a Jurchen chieftain who united the tribes and formed the coherent Jurchen state. Now Nurhachi was a brilliant strategist who was busy making the Manchu empire extremely powerful in the north. The Ming wrecked by civil wars could not really do anything to stop the rise of the Manchu’s.

Normally Oda was very Japan centric and had no intention of going on foreign conquests, but he had a new army, new weaponry, new ships... he wanted to test them out. He saw the Jurchens as being the perfect target. The Koreans were immediately crossed off from the invasion list because the geography of korea would make it impossible for his modernized soldiers to take. After all only a fool would use the tercio and other such western tactics in Korea. He could use normal Japanese tactics but then he couldn’t test out his new weaponry. The Ming while decaying was still far too large to conquer or even attack and the Europeans were still slightly ahead in terms of technology then the Japanese. Thus the Jurchens served as the perfect target. His troops would perform very well on the plains of the Jurchens.

So in late 1600 he ordered his general Hattori Hanzo to lead a force of 30000 Japanese soldiers to seize and annex the land of the Jurchens. Many Daimyos such as Toyotomi Hideyoshi and Ieyasu went as well. The campaign was known as the great Jurchen conquest. In may of 1600 after much preparation the armies lead by Hideyoshi, ieyasu, and Hattori Hanzo fought the 25000 strong army of Nurhachi who had rallied the Jurchens and personally lead them against the Japanese. The battle was fierce as both sides suffered losses. However with superior weaponry, tactics, numbers, and better generals overall Hongo's jurchen army was crushed. Hongo himself was captured and brought as prisoner before Hattori Hanzo the man in charge of the invasion.
The two made a deal, In return for sparing his life, the Manchus would be annexed into the Oda Shogunate. However they would have de-facto rule of the province and his family could rule but pay an annual tribute and follow the code of laws set by the Shogunate. Hongo was an ambitious man who realized at its current state the jurchen state he and his father worked to create could easily be destroyed and so he decided to agree with Hanzo. The treaty of Jurchen was signed in late may 1601 int he treaty the Jurchens would recognize Japanese suzeranity and pay tribute and taxes as Japanese subjects but they would be de facto autonomous but have a governor from Japan be sent their too oversee the progress of the country. Thus the Jurchens fell under the control of Japan. However many Jurches refused to recognize Hongo’s government which they viewed as a puppet govt and revolted. From 1601-1602 the Jurchen revolt was brutally put down by soldiers loyal to Hongo and Shogun Oda's forces. Finally the Jurchen lands became de-facto Japanese territory. Now this move suddenly shocked the Ming. The emperor of the Ming protested the move by Japan but facing insurrection and other problems internally the Ming made no real moves against the Japanese. The Joseons of Korea were also vary and doubled thier defenses.

 
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In the beginning, you name Oda as Shogun, but then you call him Emperor afterwards, and yet call it the Oda Shogunate later. Despite this, the story is much improved. I will be watching this.
 
In the beginning, you name Oda as Shogun, but then you call him Emperor afterwards, and yet call it the Oda Shogunate later. Despite this, the story is much improved. I will be watching this.
Ok i fixed that part thanks for telling me. Also is anyone else wishing to give input on this tl. I want to know if I made any other mistakes i would appreciate if you could point them out.
 
Why would he need to bother "usurping" the shogunate (considering that he'd forced the last Ashikaga shogun to abdicate a few years before) or the empire, when there were the titles of sessho (regent) and kampaku (chief imperial advisor) ready for the taking, and in any case he was the one who held military hegemony at this point?
 
Why would he need to bother "usurping" the shogunate (considering that he'd forced the last Ashikaga shogun to abdicate a few years before) or the empire, when there were the titles of sessho (regent) and kampaku (chief imperial advisor) ready for the taking, and in any case he was the one who held military hegemony at this point?
Well I thought he should create his own shogunate similar to Toyotomi or Tokugawa why is that not realistic?
Also about the mistake with Hong I will fix it.:eek:
 

PhilippeO

Banned
So in late 1600 he ordered his general Hattori Hanzo to lead a force of 30000 Japanese soldiers to seize and annex the land of the Jurchens.

isn't Hanzo Ieyasu man ? would Nobunaga trusted him to lead such large force ? However with 18 years difference, its possible Hanzo fought under Nobunaga and become Nobunaga loyalist.

Also in 1600, the leader of invasion is already old man. Hanzo 58, Hideyoshi 64, Ieyasu 57. they might still very good general, but their health is not very suited for hazardous journey at sea and occupying barbarian foreign country. they might prefer to become daimyo in their home and sending their sons when Nobunaga call them.
 
isn't Hanzo Ieyasu man ? would Nobunaga trusted him to lead such large force ? However with 18 years difference, its possible Hanzo fought under Nobunaga and become Nobunaga loyalist.

Also in 1600, the leader of invasion is already old man. Hanzo 58, Hideyoshi 64, Ieyasu 57. they might still very good general, but their health is not very suited for hazardous journey at sea and occupying barbarian foreign country. they might prefer to become daimyo in their home and sending their sons when Nobunaga call them.
Oh really, crap I didn't know that. Whoops I got my dates wrong:eek: Sorry..:eek:
Ok Ill fix it then. Do you know who are thier sons who were also capable generals. Ill replace them with the above generals.
Also yes although Hanzo was an Ieyasu man was he not also loyal to the Oda clan well at least to Nobunaga.
 
You know, I'm not sure this works any better than an invasion of Korea. The Jurchen military was a pretty efficient machine, as we saw OTL.
 

PhilippeO

Banned
In 1600 the Eight banner did not yet exist. Nurhaci still at war with Hulun and not yet become Khan. so Jurchen army is weaker than OTL.

Political problem of convincing the Japanese that attacking barbarian states have any benefit is going to be bigger problem. Korea is richer, closer and more prosperous.

In the year 1592 the Shogun of Japan Oda Nobunaga received emissaries from a strange locking group of people.
...
“ Of course they are Muskets the finest in Europe.” Oda smiled
“ Then lets make a deal Manuel. Tell your King this we will only agree to trade proposals if you Portuguese are willing to send advisors to train my army and provide me with these muskets as you call them.

This is a bit late.

at 1575 Battle of Nagashino, Oda Nobunaga already use firearm expertly, using rotating volley of fire, splitting loaders and shooters, and assigning three guns to a shooter . Oda did not need european help on improving his army and his gun.

and Oda certainly would not consider the portuguese "strange locking group of people". He become Jesuit patron at 1576. He use european clothes, and collector of european art, arm and armor.
 
that said, Nobunaga is still the best bet as for who to negate the Japanese Tokuwaga Shogunate's Isolationalist politics

One thing you haven't touched through, which is needed:

Oda Nobunaga was 'helped' committing suicide in 1582 by Akechi Mitsuhide, a Oda General gone traitor, certain annals stating that it was because Oda disrescepted a peace treaty Mitsuhide made with Hanato in 1579, executing their leader, which caused them to counter execute Mitsuhide's mother, who was a hostage at Hanato.

So you somehow have to use either the peacethreaty, or the assassination attempt (making Mitsuhide fail) as POD
 
In 1600 the Eight banner did not yet exist. Nurhaci still at war with Hulun and not yet become Khan. so Jurchen army is weaker than OTL.

Political problem of convincing the Japanese that attacking barbarian states have any benefit is going to be bigger problem. Korea is richer, closer and more prosperous.



This is a bit late.

at 1575 Battle of Nagashino, Oda Nobunaga already use firearm expertly, using rotating volley of fire, splitting loaders and shooters, and assigning three guns to a shooter . Oda did not need european help on improving his army and his gun.

and Oda certainly would not consider the portuguese "strange locking group of people". He become Jesuit patron at 1576. He use european clothes, and collector of european art, arm and armor.
Wow I really screwed up dates......:eek: Ok Ill fix them.
Oh really ok then but what about galleons?

Oh well okay so if thats true about the jesuits then ill fix that.

Also about Akechi Mitsuhide..... well lets say he just dies in a battle.:) Yeah so his plan fails because he gets killed although it isn't mentioned in the TL.

Also the Manchu may be strong but the geography is completly different. Unlike Korea Manchuria is more of a plains type geography ideal for nomads right after all that is what the Manchu's were before Hong and Nurhachi. But as we know open field is also good for European or tercio style warfare at least i think.

Also about Manchuria over Korea, simply put Oda is smart he knows that as of right now they shouldn't attack Korea lest they bring about the wrath of the Ming who were protecting Korea at the time. SO they go after Manchuria which I'm sure is also slightly valuable.
 

PhilippeO

Banned
Do you know who are their sons who were also capable generals.

Nobunaga had lots of sons. The Eldest Nobutada will be 43 at 1600. all his sons can be generals, several of the eldest fight in battle as general in OTL.

Hideyoshi nephew, Toyotomi Hidetsugu (32 at 1600) also fight as general in OTL.

Ieyasu also have lots of sons. Nobuyasu the eldest (41 at 1600). several of his sons also fight battle as general in OTL.

while browsing on this, i find interesting fact, one of Nobunaga brother, Nagamasu, convert to Christianity in 1588 OTL. Nobunaga invasion force would contain several Christian general, in OTL Hideyoshi invasion of Korea also have christian daimyo on it.

Oh really ok then but what about galleons?

Galleon and Iron Cannon can be used. First western style ship in Japan is built in 1604 by Williams Adams. First Cannon cast entirely in Japan is from 1575, its bronze and owned by Nobunaga.

What is difference between musket and arquebus ? Wikipedia is not clear on that. In one place they claim musket used at Nagashino, in other it arquebus.

The Shinto priests protested because they did not like this new religion but Oda did not listen to them. In 1595 the Shinto priests launched a rebellion known as the religious revolution.

Buddhist monk is more likely to rebel. They already make several war against Nobunaga. Shinto shrine is independent on each other, so unlikely thay can launch rebellion.
 
Nobunaga had lots of sons. The Eldest Nobutada will be 43 at 1600. all his sons can be generals, several of the eldest fight in battle as general in OTL.

Hideyoshi nephew, Toyotomi Hidetsugu (32 at 1600) also fight as general in OTL.

Ieyasu also have lots of sons. Nobuyasu the eldest (41 at 1600). several of his sons also fight battle as general in OTL.

while browsing on this, i find interesting fact, one of Nobunaga brother, Nagamasu, convert to Christianity in 1588 OTL. Nobunaga invasion force would contain several Christian general, in OTL Hideyoshi invasion of Korea also have christian daimyo on it.



Galleon and Iron Cannon can be used. First western style ship in Japan is built in 1604 by Williams Adams. First Cannon cast entirely in Japan is from 1575, its bronze and owned by Nobunaga.

What is difference between musket and arquebus ? Wikipedia is not clear on that. In one place they claim musket used at Nagashino, in other it arquebus.



Buddhist monk is more likely to rebel. They already make several war against Nobunaga. Shinto shrine is independent on each other, so unlikely thay can launch rebellion.
Thank you so much for this information it greatly helps.
 
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