The Flag on High: As The World Went Dark

trurle

Banned
Wendigo said:
Unless you were willing to depopulate German occupied Europe killing tens of millions and losing all claims to moral superiority in the eyes of the world, nuclear carpet bombing isn't feasible.

The only sure way to defeat a nation as formidable and large as the Greater Germanic Reich is through a strategic air campaign combined with a ground invasion like in the Anglo American Nazi War. The Reich hasn't given the Allies a good enough Casus Belli yet (@Star Eater can change that in later updates) so in the meantime the Reich will continue to dominate the continent, working millions of slaves to death and depopulating the East of its "subhuman" inhabitants a bit more each year.

Remember that under Generalplan Ost 85% of Poles, 75% of Russians, 65% of Ukrainians, 50% of Czechs, Estonians, and Latvians, 85% of Lithuanians and 75% of Belarusians were designated for death by starvation and Extermination through Labor with the rest being enslaved as serfs on German plantations/farms in the East. So Eastern Europe and the rest of the Reich is basically history's largest charnel house at this point in the TL. We're talking over 100 MILLION people being killed over 30 years because they were born the wrong "race."

The Nazis were evil incarnate.
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Without Hiroshima and Nagasaki in this ATL, nuclear weapons are not considered a particularly evil contraption. The US high command would see nuclear bombardment as a convenient tool to reduce total war casualties (especially on more important US side) and end a war faster. It`s the logic what brought Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombardment in the first place.
 

Zireael

Why the WAllies (under whatever name) do not simply bomb Berlin or some other German city? It looks to me like they're sitting more or less peacefully and close their eyes to the atrocities carried out by the Nazis.
 
Wendigo

Wendigo

Banned
Zireael said:
Why the WAllies (under whatever name) do not simply bomb Berlin or some other German city? It looks to me like they're sitting more or less peacefully and close their eyes to the atrocities carried out by the Nazis.
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Considering they have control over the resources and combined military forces of continental Europe, a few nukings aren't going to be enough to make them roll over especially with fanatics like Himmler in charge.

Hitler didn't surrender when his army was defeated and surrendering by the millions, almost every German city was bombed to ruins, and the Red Army was firing 203mm howitzers over open sights in the streets of Berlin less than a mile away from his bunker.

What makes you think that HIMMLER who was just as an insane true believer as Hitler if not more so, would throw in the towel after a single nuclear strike?

Also once the first nuke is dropped any Allied aircraft in German airspace WILL be swamped by the Luftwaffe in case they're carrying another nuke even if it means ramming their planes into it. And if the Allied bomber crashes with the nuke still intact, that's really bad news. You just gave a free nuclear bomb to a bunch of genocidal monsters who have already murdered tens of millions and won't hesitate to turn London into a mushroom cloud.

If you want to defeat the Reich using nukes alone (which makes for a boring story) you would have to use them in such quantity that millions of people including those living under Nazi occupation would die, rendering all claims that the Allies are liberators with the moral high ground null and void in the eyes of the rest of the world.

Also like in the Anglo American Nazi War TL, they might want to keep nuclear weapons a secret if the Reich is still unaware of their feasibility. If you nuke a few cities leaving the Reich bloodied but still on their feet, not only did you commit mass murder for nothing but you also demonstrated that nuclear weapons indeed are possible which could lead to a souped up Nazi nuclear weapon project coming online.

Outside of the nuclear depopulation of the continent (ASB for the Allies considering that they weren't genocidal maniacs) the only way the Reich is going down is if they collapse after their slave labor dies off or after a grueling air/ground campaign which ends with American and British troops in Berlin.
 
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trurle

Banned
Wendigo said:
Considering they have control over the resources and combined military forces of continental Europe, a few nukings aren't going to be enough to make them roll over especially with fanatics like Himmler in charge.

Hitler didn't surrender when his army was defeated and surrendering by the millions, almost every German city was bombed to ruins, and the Red Army was firing 203mm howitzers over open sights in the streets of Berlin less than a mile away from his bunker.

What makes you think that HIMMLER who was just as an insane true believer as Hitler if not more so, would throw in the towel after a single nuclear strike?

Also once the first nuke is dropped any Allied aircraft in German airspace WILL be swamped by the Luftwaffe in case they're carrying another nuke even if it means ramming their planes into it. And if the Allied bomber crashes with the nuke still intact, that's really bad news. You just gave a free nuclear bomb to a bunch of genocidal monsters who have already murdered tens of millions and won't hesitate to turn London into a mushroom cloud.

If you want to defeat the Reich using nukes alone (which makes for a boring story) you would have to use them in such quantity that millions of people including those living under Nazi occupation would die, rendering all claims that the Allies are liberators with the moral high ground null and void in the eyes of the rest of the world.

Also like in the Anglo American Nazi War TL, they might want to keep nuclear weapons a secret if the Reich is still unaware of their feasibility. If you nuke a few cities leaving the Reich bloodied but still on their feet, not only did you commit mass murder for nothing but you also demonstrated that nuclear weapons indeed are possible which could lead to a souped up Nazi nuclear weapon project coming online.

Outside of the nuclear depopulation of the continent (ASB for the Allies considering that they weren't genocidal maniacs) the only way the Reich is going down is if they collapse after their slave labor dies off or after a grueling air/ground campaign which ends with American and British troops in Berlin.
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It may be very misleading to apply OTL political attitudes to grossly different ATL world. Not sure the ATL US in 1956 is democratic. The US of 1956 in this ATL may be crypto-nazistic or even openly nazi in all aspects besides name. Remember a "red scare" episodes in OTL. Make US losing (or at least not clearly winning) side in WWII as in this ATL, and you will see "nazi scare" on the unprecedented scale. With mass forced disappearances, torture of political opponents, forced convictions, slave labour camps, ghettos for national minorities (implemented for Japanese IOTL). Some of the features are silently adopted from 3rd reich (after all, it is natural to imitate winner, right?)
 

skaven

trurle said:
It may be very misleading to apply OTL political attitudes to grossly different ATL world. Not sure the ATL US in 1956 is democratic. The US of 1956 in this ATL may be crypto-nazistic or even openly nazi in all aspects besides name. Remember a "red scare" episodes in OTL. Make US losing (or at least not clearly winning) side in WWII as in this ATL, and you will see "nazi scare" on the unprecedented scale. With mass forced disappearances, torture of political opponents, forced convictions, slave labour camps, ghettos for national minorities (implemented for Japanese IOTL). Some of the features are silently adopted from 3rd reich (after all, it is natural to imitate winner, right?)
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Of couse, which is why in OTL the US adopted mass collectivisation, because the USSR won, and the monarchy, because the British won. Your proposal is ludicrous.
 

Hades

I'm wondering what happened to Africa. Did the Germans have any real plans for the continent or was it "Not our problem. Leave it to the rest of europe"?
 
Wendigo

Wendigo

Banned
Hades said:
I'm wondering what happened to Africa. Did the Germans have any real plans for the continent or was it "Not our problem. Leave it to the rest of europe"?
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@Star Eater can explain but in this TL the USSR surrendered after Stalin died in 1943. So the Afrika Korps was already defeated and captured by the time the East up to the Urals were occupied.

Now if they DO have any possessions in Africa it would like something like this:

mittelafrika_by_qsec-d5hzxon.jpg


If the natives are treated anything like the Slavs in Eastern Europe, expect something like the horrors of the Belgian Congo under Leopold ll but with better technology and far more systematic/deliberate.
 

Hades

Just as a minor tangent, I think if X-Men is still a thing, Apocalypse is going to show up much, much earlier ITTL.
 
Wendigo

Wendigo

Banned
Zireael said:
Why the WAllies (under whatever name) do not simply bomb Berlin or some other German city? It looks to me like they're sitting more or less peacefully and close their eyes to the atrocities carried out by the Nazis.
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The author explained why on the first page:

On July 16th, 1945 the Trinity test took place in the Mexico desert. The world’s first atomic bomb was detonated, and suddenly the ability to wipe out an entire city with just one bomb was open. The capability to bring Japan to its knees, and Germany too, without a single Allied casualty was now available. And yet it was never dropped. American planners came to the conclusion that to do so would alert the Third Reich that such a weapon was possible. Not enough bombs were available to destroy both empires or even just one, and Germany certainly had enough resources as its disposal to create its own in potentially a very short time. In truth, the West simply did not know whether Germany could do this. It was known that the German nuclear program seemed to be abandoned, and the Nazi’s own ideological distrust of “Jewish” science proved a blessing. But if Berlin or Hamburg were vaporised, how long until the same happened to London?
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Wendigo

Wendigo

Banned
I don't know which kind of Nazi victory TLs I prefer, ones where there's a Cold War between the Reich and the US/UK or the ones where there's major conflict and an actual Hot War like in the Anglo American Nazi War TL.
 
Wendigo

Wendigo

Banned
@Star Eater has there been any attempt by the Reich to raze/demolish Slavic cities (Moscow, Warsaw, Leningrad etc) using slave labor like was planned IOTL?
 
Wendigo

Wendigo

Banned

trurle

Banned
Wendigo said:
Another good question is whether there is a significant German settler population in the areas designated on this map made by Reich planners considering the TL is in the mid 1950s currently.
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The planned level of funding for German colonists was enough to realistically support may be 5,000 settlers per year (while 250,000 was planned). Invest less, and colonists will become disloyal or simply run away. Lowering the standards of living also do not help much because there are a large security costs. People do not like to transfer to place where they are guaranteed to be killed, even if today`s earning is just bread and water.
Well, i can image Germans deporting Czechs to Polish lands with a new German passport and a rusty shovel as pre-payment. No, not sure the Germans can afford to distribute 250,000 rusty shovels per year..ministry of economy would supply partially wood-laminate shovels instead.:coldsweat: After all, colonists can repair wooden shovels using local woods, right?:angel:
 

andys

Why on earth hasn't Germany been Big-Oned yet? Surely the UN has a large enough stock of nukes by now?

Edit: There can be no pussy-footing around with demonstration initiations either, the Nazis have shown themselves to be uncivilised, murdering brutes many times over. Anything less than a Big One will only result in the Nazis deploying Sarin/Tabun in massive quantities.
 
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