The First Ride of Victory Bismark

Didn't PoW trail Bismark with the two cruisers for quite a while? If something slows down PoW or Bismark turns to continue the engagement, then the two big county class cruisers would probably close to engage the german cruiser.

If they are lucky they might even put a couple of torpedo's into Bismark on there way past. I don't see Bismark doing major damage to PoW that would slow her down, at least not very quickly, the KGV's had the thickest and deepest belts of any battleships except for Vanguard and possibly Yamato.

KGV wasnt alone either, one of the Renown class was also with her (don't remember which), the other was with Force H. The other thing i don't remember, was whether any of the R-class were at scapa at the time, if they were they could sale north to join KGV for the engagement against Bismark.

Also don't forget coastal command which had a lot of torpedo carrying medium bombers.
 
While the any of the modernised New Mexico's were IMO more capable in a stand up fight than the Tirpitz how without carrier support were they ever going to bring it to battle? I just can't see the 2 supporting cruisers being able to slow the Tirpitz enough to allow the BB's into the engagement.


Soren,

We're looking at what a 10 knot difference between the New Mexicos and Tirpitz? The professionals who stationed them there must have had some plan and I suspect it would have been some variation on the RN's plans in the OTL.

The cruisers would have patrolled the Strait, contacted Tirpitz first, then shadowed her while directing the New Mexicos and their destroyers to a intercept. It wouldn't be a case of Tirpitz sprinting past the patrolling New Mexicos or the older slower BBs attempting a stern chase. The New Mexicos would be ahead of Tirptiz and thus hopefully able to intercept her.

I'm sure the problem was reduced to mathematics and probabilities like so many patrolling questions were during WW2 and the warships involved were positioned with regards to the results.

I must agree with you about the prospect of Tirpitz facing 24 14-inch rifles.


Bill
 
Soren,

We're looking at what a 10 knot difference between the New Mexicos and Tirpitz? The professionals who stationed them there must have had some plan and I suspect it would have been some variation on the RN's plans in the OTL.

The cruisers would have patrolled the Strait, contacted Tirpitz first, then shadowed her while directing the New Mexicos and their destroyers to a intercept. It wouldn't be a case of Tirpitz sprinting past the patrolling New Mexicos or the older slower BBs attempting a stern chase. The New Mexicos would be ahead of Tirptiz and thus hopefully able to intercept her.

I'm sure the problem was reduced to mathematics and probabilities like so many patrolling questions were during WW2 and the warships involved were positioned with regards to the results.

I must agree with you about the prospect of Tirpitz facing 24 14-inch rifles.


Bill

Bill

Effectively a 10kt speed difference. The best source I have puts the Tirpitz at 30kts.
I think a lot depends both on the visibility at the time & the possible radar on the US ships, which I don't have information on. Rohwer & Hummelchen lists no destroyers present which may be an oversight but without them even with the US cruisers able to shadow the Tirpitz unless the battleships encounter each other at close range due to poor visibility the speed difference is such that the Tirpitz would likely be able to disengage before suffering serious damage.
I certainly don't won't to be second guessing the professionals looking to stop the Tirpitz but with a 9kt speed difference its going to be very difficult to force a decisive engagement to upon the Tirpitz, although stopping any breakout is of course a victory in itself.
 
I certainly don't won't to be second guessing the professionals looking to stop the Tirpitz but with a 9kt speed difference its going to be very difficult to force a decisive engagement to upon the Tirpitz, although stopping any breakout is of course a victory in itself.


Soren,

As you pointed out earlier, it most certainly is a speed mismatch, but it must have been done for some reason. I suspect it was more a case of contact and shadow than contact and sink with the New Mexicos in place on the odd chance they might be able to intercept however briefly.

Also, with PoW and Repulse off to Singapore by November of '41 having the New Mexicos in the Strait is better than nothing.

Your initial post mentions that KGV, Victorious, and five cruisers are positioned south of Iceland. I think that suggests the WAllies thinking on the matter. Those cruisers, along with the Coastal Command aircraft Steveo reminded us of, will be covering the rest of the GIUK gaps with the battleship and carrier acting as a "backstop". The KGV might have the real backstop for the US cruisers in the Strait too.

An important part of the equation is the numbers and types of aircraft on Iceland. When compared to the other capital ships of the period, the Bismarck-class had poor AA capabilities and, when compared to the Pacific standards of less than two years later, laughable AA capabilities. Were air strikes from Iceland part of the plan?

The WAllies were worried about a Tirpitz breakout in November of '41, but how serious were the Germans? Was it a chimera or did the UK have serious intelligence on the matter? (Given Engima, Britain sometimes had as good a picture of German movements as Germany herself.) Was a Tirpitz sortie planned at all? Perhaps in conjunction with a sortie by Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, Prinz Eugen sortie from Brest? Those vessels haven't made the Channel Dash yet.

The idea of a KM - USN clash in the Denmark Strait triggering US entry into the Waragainst Germany is fascinating. The ramifications for the Pacific are very intriguing.


Bill
 

Hecatee

Donor
I wondered, taking the POD at face value and having the Bismark going home as here described, would the RETEX on the battle lead to design improvements and modifications for the Bismark and/or the Tirpitz ? Including AAA added after the Prinz's sinking and better armor and/or better shells ? Should any such modification/improvement be done, would they improve the Bismark class overall effectiveness ?

As for the british, would the huge human losses coming from the loss of both the Hood and the Prince have an impact of RN ability to operate all it's ships ?
Also if the Prince's at the bottom of the Atlantic, what impact on the british presence in the Pacific ? Do they send reinforcements there in preparation for the war with Japan ? If they do, which kind of ships ?

Finally, do the events in the Atlantic have an impact on the Mediterranean ?
 
I wondered, taking the POD at face value and having the Bismark going home as here described, would the RETEX on the battle lead to design improvements and modifications for the Bismark and/or the Tirpitz ? Including AAA added after the Prinz's sinking and better armor and/or better shells ? Should any such modification/improvement be done, would they improve the Bismark class overall effectiveness ?

As for the british, would the huge human losses coming from the loss of both the Hood and the Prince have an impact of RN ability to operate all it's ships ?
Also if the Prince's at the bottom of the Atlantic, what impact on the british presence in the Pacific ? Do they send reinforcements there in preparation for the war with Japan ? If they do, which kind of ships ?

Finally, do the events in the Atlantic have an impact on the Mediterranean ?

better armour is unlikely, given how most of bismark's flaws in that area were structural. You would probably need a fair amount of time in drydock and a partial rebuilding to correct the flaws. Shells are fixable, but if Bismark comes out on top by this margin their isnt going to be much inepetus to change them. Same for AAA. The germans arent going to see any pressing need for additional anti-aircraft weapons until they experience the dangers aircraft pose to battleships, which probably involves losing at minimum a cruiser, more likely a capital ship at sea to the Fleet Air Arm.
 

Hecatee

Donor
Well they just did loose the Prinz due to airpower so they've seen airpower in action, thus my question.

As for armor I understand well that it would be a rather huge refit, but since the ship will be going to drydock anyway and that Tirpitz isn't finished yet, it could be decided by the Reich authorities that it is a worthwhile investment.

Also, does the battle lead to any other improvements in the ships (i.e. radar systems, fire control system, training procedures, ... ?) and will they draw from the now battle hardenned crew to provide backbone to the Tirpitz' crew ?
 
Well they just did loose the Prinz due to airpower so they've seen airpower in action, thus my question.


Hecatee,

Huh? Prinz Eugen survived the war and was served as a target at Bikini Atoll during the Able and Baker drops in Operation Crossroads.

As for AA layouts, assuming Prinz Eugen and Bismarck immediately reversed course for Norway after sinking Hood and either sinking or driving off PoW, Victorious most certainly would have been able to launch against them as would Coastal Command. Those air attacks could have very well tipped the Germans to both vessels' deficiency in AA armament and layout. Whether they would have turned back is another question and there's a good reason why Prinz Eugen and Bismarck wouldn't have turned around.

You see, in the OTL, the PoW's fuel bunker hit on Bismarck immediately scrubbed that battleship's commerce raiding mission. Simply put, Lutjen's mission was over in Denmark Straits and he knew that in Denmark Straits. With the mission now canceled, Lutjens would have to put into port for repairs and he correctly chose to head for France. His pursuers were "behind" him and turning around would have let the Royal Navy catch him more easily. By going forward towards France, he could spoil or avoid more of the RN's chances to intercept him. Turing back was a far worse choice tactically than going on ahead.

As for armor I understand well that it would be a rather huge refit, but since the ship will be going to drydock anyway and that Tirpitz isn't finished yet, it could be decided by the Reich authorities that it is a worthwhile investment.

First, the Germans wouldn't have any reason to correct Bismarck's poor armor disposition because it's flaws wouldn't have shown up during the Denmark Strait battle. Second, Tirpitz was not only afloat she was already in commission.

The lack of knowledge regarding Bismarck's poor armor disposition holds true for the KM's faulty base-fused shells. They'd have no reason to doubt the shells' worth because they'd just sunk Hood and sunk or drove off PoW. When the Royal Navy's analysis of the damage to PoW revealed that Germany's shells weren't operating as designed, you'd best bet that they kept such information top secret. Let me explain.

During WW1, Germany realized after Jutland that the RN's shells were faulty too and Britain only learned of that thanks to a series of unlikely cocktail parties. Apparently HSF officers had bragged about faulty RN shells during a party in which a Swedish naval officer was present. That officer in turn told the story over drinks when he was visiting Britain a few months later. The RN immediately ordered tests and, when the faults were revealed, a redesign of the shells. The fleet didn't get the redesigned shells until the summer of 1918. There's no way in hell you're going to let slip that your enemy's shells aren't working correctly and, if Britain didn't know that already, her experience in WW1 would have taught it to her.

Also, does the battle lead to any other improvements in the ships (i.e. radar systems, fire control system, training procedures, ... ?) and will they draw from the now battle hardenned crew to provide backbone to the Tirpitz' crew ?

Not really because Bismarck - if she makes it back to port after turning around, something I find unlikely - would have won her battle. Her fire control and everything worked as advertised. There would have been a few improvements suggested by actual use in combat of those systems, but nothing major.

As for Bismarck's crew acting as cadre for Tirpitz, that second battleship was already in commission. She just hadn't finished working up yet and would become operational in


Bill
 

Hecatee

Donor
Hi Bill,

I asked my questions based upon the original timeline proposition which states :

In revenge Swordfish biplane torpedo bombers from 825 Naval Air Squadron of the aircraft carrier Victorious fly late in the evening as shadows are getting long an Attack is made and some revenge is made not on the Bismark that was seen too late but 2 hits strike the Heavy Cruiser Prince Eugene, After 20 minutes of Struggle the order is given to abandon ship. Almost half her crew will be recovered, Before Bismark makes best speed to head for home.

Thus the deficiency in AA is exposed.

As for the shell deficiency, it could be discovered in AAR when counting the hits and looking at the known damages or after some observation on the few explosions that happened on the enemy ships even if critical hits were done.
 
I asked my questions based upon the original timeline proposition which states...


Hecatee,

Ah, never mind! ;)

As for the shell deficiency, it could be discovered in AAR when counting the hits and looking at the known damages or after some observation on the few explosions that happened on the enemy ships even if critical hits were done.

No it can't because it has never been done that way ever. It's impossible to even attempt that. You can't "count" hits with any degree of certainty at ranges measured in kilometers. You can't assess damage from hits with any degree of certainty at ranges measure in kilometers either.

PoW took a 14-inch hit from Bismarck on her Compass Platform and another below the waterline neither of which exploded. Because those shells didn't explode, observers on Bismarck had no way of knowing the shells had failed. Because the shells failed, the observers on Bismarck didn't even know they'd hit PoW with those shells.

AARs aren't going to reveal a thing. The distances involved are too great and the damage is not available for inspection. The Royal Navy didn't know it's shells failed at Jutland until the people those shells were aimed at let that fact slip out during a cocktail party. Hell, we still don't have a firm handle on how many times Bismarck was hit and by which ships during her final battle and that despite filming the actual wreckage.


Bill
 
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