The First Austrian Queen of France

Early in Louis XV's widowhood there was talks of further cementing the Habsburg-Bourbon alliance by marrying the king to the Archduchess Maria Elisabeth - reportedly the most beautiful of the Queen of Hungary's daughters. This was designed to keep him out of sex-scandals. Unfortunately, Elisabeth contracted smallpox which reportedly left her horribly scarred and since she was now "unfit" for the marriage market, her mother (probably relieved since Elisabeth had a reputation as a "coquette" at the Viennese court, as well as a rather sharp tongue) hustled her into an abbey at Innsbruck. There she lived out the remainder of her long spinster life, growing terribly fat.

What if Elisabeth had not contracted smallpox, or it had not left her visibly scarred, and instead of an Imperial Abbess she had become the queen of France for a time, what effects would it have on when Antoinette arrived at Versailles? Another reason for considering Elisabeth as a second wife was to further underline the Franco-Austrian alliance by having two Austrian queens of France in succession.
 
No Marie Antoinette fans who want to play around with this idea?

Okay, well here's what I think MIGHT happen. Being beautiful and vivacious (albeit possessed of a sharp tongue), Elisabeth might enchant LXV as much as her sister did. She's a one-eighty from the late queen. Ergo, unless she makes inroads by displaying the famed Habsburg piety, her stepchildren aren't going to have a good relationship with her - they might see her as a coquette to replace a saint.

Also, the anti-Austrian vibe was concentrated on MA because there was no one else to take it. Here, her sister might help split the difference - but its a jump from insulting the queen (& your stepmother) to insulting your nephew, the heir to the throne's wife. Also, it might take some of the heat off Antoonette when she arrives in France since they've had some time to get used to an Austrian queen.

As to children, Louis XV was still fathering bastards well into his 60s so why not one or two legitimate children. OTOH Elisabeth could emulate her niece, the Electress of Bavaria, and refuse to have relations with her husband since she feared catching STDs.
 
Am I the only one who thinks that having more than one set of half-Habsburg Bourbon kids running around Versailles would be interesting? Also, would French policy take a more pro-Austrian bent? And would Elisabeth be recalled to Vienna after LXV's death - perhaps to marry again? Or would MT/Josef II respect her rights as dowager queen (and what would those rights be)?

Out of curiosity, her niece, Marie Thérèse found her an extremely forbidding personality when she stayed with her en route to Vienna, does anyone know what was/will be her relationship with MA, considering that MA's closest friend in the family after Caroline left for Naples, was Josef's daughter, Maria Theresia Elisabeth ("Titi")
 
No Marie Antoinette fans who want to play around with this idea?

Okay, well here's what I think MIGHT happen. Being beautiful and vivacious (albeit possessed of a sharp tongue), Elisabeth might enchant LXV as much as her sister did. She's a one-eighty from the late queen. Ergo, unless she makes inroads by displaying the famed Habsburg piety, her stepchildren aren't going to have a good relationship with her - they might see her as a coquette to replace a saint.

Also, the anti-Austrian vibe was concentrated on MA because there was no one else to take it. Here, her sister might help split the difference - but its a jump from insulting the queen (& your stepmother) to insulting your nephew, the heir to the throne's wife. Also, it might take some of the heat off Antoonette when she arrives in France since they've had some time to get used to an Austrian queen.

As to children, Louis XV was still fathering bastards well into his 60s so why not one or two legitimate children. OTOH Elisabeth could emulate her niece, the Electress of Bavaria, and refuse to have relations with her husband since she feared catching STDs.

First the first Austrian Queen was Marie Elisabeth, wife of Charles IX, back in the 16th century. But it would be something of a coup for the Austrians and such a marriage would cause a bit of a scandal. Typically Kings (and Queens) of France didn't remarry after the death of their spouse and I can't see the breaking of this tradition being well received. Another mark against the Austrians. And the court is more likely to focus any anger and/or ill feelings towards the first lady of France, here being Elisabeth instead of Marie Antoinette, then the Dauphine. That in itself would be a huge help to the future Queen.

As for the feelings of the King's daughters, well they didn't like anyone really so that will be relatively minor in the long run. Also such a double marriage would strengthen the Austrian party at Versailles, maybe to the point that they'll remain a power in politics throughout the 1770s and early 1780s.

And towards children, very unlikely. He only had one acknowledged illegitimate child, who was born in 1754. So looking at that there's not a big chance on having a second family. Maybe one or two children but thats the highest I'm willing to go.

Am I the only one who thinks that having more than one set of half-Habsburg Bourbon kids running around Versailles would be interesting? Also, would French policy take a more pro-Austrian bent? And would Elisabeth be recalled to Vienna after LXV's death - perhaps to marry again? Or would MT/Josef II respect her rights as dowager queen (and what would those rights be)?

Out of curiosity, her niece, Marie Thérèse found her an extremely forbidding personality when she stayed with her en route to Vienna, does anyone know what was/will be her relationship with MA, considering that MA's closest friend in the family after Caroline left for Naples, was Josef's daughter, Maria Theresia Elisabeth ("Titi")

To Elisabeth remarrying, that would be a MAJOR no-no. Remember the famous words of Blanche of Navarre, widow of Philippe VI: Les reines de France ne se remarient point or The Queens of France never remarried. So any attempt to force that would cause large friction between Versailles and Vienna. As for rights of a Queen Dowager, well thats debatable. The last Queen Dowager was Louise of Lorraine, Henri III's wife. So going by what she was provided with after her husbands death, she would have her jointure and Dower lands as provided in the marriage contract. And she would still be second lady of the Court (outranking her step granddaughters-in-law the Comtesses de Provence et d'Artois) so I doubt she would completely retire from Versailles either. But I would imagine that there would be much friction between the two sisters, especially if the Queen has a son while Madame la Dauphine remains childless like OTL.
 
The thing about the queens not remarrying always puzzled me, since both LXII's 2 &3e wife had remarried - Anne ofBrittany to him, and Mary Tudor to Charles Brandon.

Also, both LXIV and le Grand Dauphin remarried (albeit morganatically) to Mme de Maintenon and Émilie Joly de Choin. Both of whom had been married before, too.
 
The thing about the queens not remarrying always puzzled me, since both LXII's 2 &3e wife had remarried - Anne ofBrittany to him, and Mary Tudor to Charles Brandon.

Also, both LXIV and le Grand Dauphin remarried (albeit morganatically) to Mme de Maintenon and Émilie Joly de Choin. Both of whom had been married before, too.

Remember that Anne of Brittany remarried to King Louis XII, as stipulated in her marriage treaty with Charles VIII. And as to Mary Tudor, well she was also the only Queen Dowager to return to England. If she remained in France I doubt very seriously that she would have remarried.

As for Louis XIV and le Grand Dauphin, again doesn't really count. Neither marriage was ever acknowledged, even by morganatic standards, so in the eyes of the state they never happened.
 
Remember that Anne of Brittany remarried to King Louis XII, as stipulated in her marriage treaty with Charles VIII. And as to Mary Tudor, well she was also the only Queen Dowager to return to England. If she remained in France I doubt very seriously that she would have remarried.

As for Louis XIV and le Grand Dauphin, again doesn't really count. Neither marriage was ever acknowledged, even by morganatic standards, so in the eyes of the state they never happened.

Okay, thanks for clearing that up. I never sort of understood how it worked. I always thought that it's like your Iberian monarchies where until the queen has produced a living child, she's merely the king's wife.
 
Okay, thanks for clearing that up. I never sort of understood how it worked. I always thought that it's like your Iberian monarchies where until the queen has produced a living child, she's merely the king's wife.

As far as I know it was a fairly unique situation. I believe that the only Queen Dowager to have a child with her royal husband was Blanche of Navarre and that was a daughter. For precedence I would look towards the late Valois era to see how a Queen Dowager would be treated. After all that era had three: Mary Queen of Scots, Marie Elisabeth of Austria and Louise of Lorraine. Elisabeth and Louise's settlements and properties would give you a good idea of what Louis XV's widow would have.
 
As far as I know it was a fairly unique situation. I believe that the only Queen Dowager to have a child with her royal husband was Blanche of Navarre and that was a daughter. For precedence I would look towards the late Valois era to see how a Queen Dowager would be treated. After all that era had three: Mary Queen of Scots, Marie Elisabeth of Austria and Louise of Lorraine. Elisabeth and Louise's settlements and properties would give you a good idea of what Louis XV's widow would have.

Well, AFAIK the first Elisabeth was named Duchesse de Berri, Comtesse de Basse et Haute-Marche, and later Duchesse d'Auvergne and Bourbon, Louise was named Duchesse de Berri. Margot de Valois was created Duchesse de Valois after her annulment (but IDK if one can count her as a sort of the only Bourbon dowager queen).

The duchies of Berri and Auvergne IIRC were in the hands of the Comte d'Artois, and the duchy of Valois was property of the house of Orleans. The Mesdames were presented with the duchy of Louvois by LXVI. Is there a sort of ranking as to what duchy she might be presented with? Or is it just a case of she would be given whatever's available?
 
As far as I can understand the traditional duchies (post 1774) were already allocated as follows:

Cte de Provence
-duc d'Anjou
-duc du Maine
-duc de Vendôme
-duc d'Alençon
-comte de Senoches

Cte d'Artois
-duc d'Auvergne
-duc de Mercoeur
-duc de Berri
-duc d'Angoulême

Duc d'Orléans
-duc de Valois
-duc de Chartres
-duc de Nemours
-duc de Montpensier
-cte de Beaujolais
-duc d'Aumale
-prince de Joinville
-duc de Penthièvre

Prince de Condé
-duc de Bourbon
-duc d'Enghien
-duc de Vermandois
-cte de Charolais
-cte de Clermont

Prince de Conti
-prince de la Roch-sur-Yon
-cte d'Alais
-cte de la Marche

So, might Louis XVI take one of those away from someone to give to his stepmother/sister-in-law, or would it have been stipulated already in her marriage contract as to what would happen to her when the king died. AFAIK Liselotte's marriage contract had said that she would go to a convent when Monsieur died (probably the one where her aunt was abbess), but LXIV refused to let her go/allowed her not to go.
 
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