The Fire Never Dies, Part II: The Red Colossus

[Meshakhad]

Some thiughts about culture in TTL.

1. I'm thinking that Ub Iwerks is going to get the respect he deserves ITTL.

He will.

1. Also Walt's first character will likely be a rabbit with no rights issues to take TTL's Oswald away from him.

This does mean no Mickey Mouse, but Oswald will probably fill the role.

1. If a character like Bruce Wayne exists he's likely going to be closer to Lex Luthor than OTL Bruce. He'd be an exiled scion of an old money family who first donned a costumed identity pre-revolution as a supervillain to beat up poor people trying to unionize his businesses.

The alternative would be a proletarian Bruce Wayne. Ed Thomas did that in The World of Fight and be Right. If we do get a proletarian Batman ITTL, my guess is that he evolves into a spy rather than a crime fighter. Perhaps he was a butler or other servant before the Revolution, which is why he has the necessary social skills to pass as an American exile and infiltrate capitalist high society. Alternatively he might turn into a gadgeteer, possibly becoming TTL's Iron Man.

But an evil Bruce Wayne has potential. Of course, if we do get an evil Batman, then I think I would be obligated to make a heroic version of the Joker.

You know what? Fuck it. We're going with that. Batman is a bad guy ITTL (although maybe one who occasionally switches sides) while Joker is a good guy. Iron Man can fill the gadgeteer role (although TTL's Tony Stark obviously isn't a businessman).

1. I'm fairly certain that Charlie Chaplin is likely dying in America ITTL.

Yeah, that's pretty much a given.

 

[Born in the USSA]

The alternative would be a proletarian Bruce Wayne. Ed Thomas did that in The World of Fight and be Right. If we do get a proletarian Batman ITTL, my guess is that he evolves into a spy rather than a crime fighter. Perhaps he was a butler or other servant before the Revolution, which is why he has the necessary social skills to pass as an American exile and infiltrate capitalist high society. Alternatively he might turn into a gadgeteer, possibly becoming TTL's Iron Man.

But an evil Bruce Wayne has potential. Of course, if we do get an evil Batman, then I think I would be obligated to make a heroic version of the Joker.

You know what? Fuck it. We're going with that. Batman is a bad guy ITTL (although maybe one who occasionally switches sides) while Joker is a good guy. Iron Man can fill the gadgeteer role (although TTL's Tony Stark obviously isn't a businessman).

A Joker who's a principled egoist anarchist would be interesting 🤔 there's a long history of that current in the US, it would've still had currency given the timing of the POD and Revolution, and it gives him an ideological reason to be heroic but still an outlaw operating outside the system. Just replace the green suits with proper egoist teal and have him style his hair in the same way as the Max Stirner doodle (complete with fancy high tech goggles in place of the glasses) and you'd be set. The Ego and his arch enemy the Bat-Man, the social commentary practically writes itself.

 

[HonestAbe1809]

He will.

The natural benefits of working in an animation collective instead of a company where your boss can steal the credit for yor accomplishments.

This does mean no Mickey Mouse, but Oswald will probably fill the role.

It's only fair. Personally, I like to think that Oswald would be something of a proto-Bugs. He should remain a bit of a rascal instead of being turned blandly nice like what happened over time to Mickey in OTL.

The alternative would be a proletarian Bruce Wayne. Ed Thomas did that in The World of Fight and be Right. If we do get a proletarian Batman ITTL, my guess is that he evolves into a spy rather than a crime fighter. Perhaps he was a butler or other servant before the Revolution, which is why he has the necessary social skills to pass as an American exile and infiltrate capitalist high society. Alternatively he might turn into a gadgeteer, possibly becoming TTL's Iron Man.

There could be two characters formed from Batman's character. A proletarian hero and crime fighter and a rich bastard who used his power and privilege to bully the less fortunate. They could even be brothers. Proletarian hero Bruce Wayne rejects his family legacy and becomes a hero while Thomas Wayne Jr embraces it. And that way your original idea for Bruce can coexist with mine.

But an evil Bruce Wayne has potential. Of course, if we do get an evil Batman, then I think I would be obligated to make a heroic version of the Joker.

You know what? Fuck it. We're going with that. Batman is a bad guy ITTL (although maybe one who occasionally switches sides) while Joker is a good guy. Iron Man can fill the gadgeteer role (although TTL's Tony Stark obviously isn't a businessman).

It makes a fair bit of sense. Gwynplaine, the titular character of The Man Who Laughs and the inspiration for the Joker was the protagonist of the story. Bruce could ironically assist the Joker in his fight against his evil brother. I like the name "the Grey Ghost" or "the Phantasm" for Bruce Wayne's heroic alter-ego.

It would just go to show how Bruce/Thomas Junior is a more pragmatic sort of villainy than others in this hypothetical superhero universe.

And Tony's accomplishments with his power armor would be considerably more impressive without having practically infinite resources at his beck and call. In this sense he'd probably be closer to Spider-Man than his OTL self.

Quite frankly you could set up a spin-off where we flesh out how the various superhero comics universes are shaped by TTL.

 

[Born in the USSA]

The natural benefits of working in an animation collective instead of a company where your boss can steal the credit for yor accomplishments.



It's only fair. Personally, I like to think that Oswald would be something of a proto-Bugs. He should remain a bit of a rascal instead of being turned blandly nice like what happened over time to Mickey in OTL.



There could be two characters formed from Batman's character. A proletarian hero and crime fighter and a rich bastard who used his power and privilege to bully the less fortunate. They could even be brothers. Proletarian hero Bruce Wayne rejects his family legacy and becomes a hero while Thomas Wayne Jr embraces it. And that way your original idea for Bruce can coexist with mine.



It makes a fair bit of sense. Gwynplaine, the titular character of The Man Who Laughs and the inspiration for the Joker was the protagonist of the story. Bruce could ironically assist the Joker in his fight against his evil brother. I like the name "the Grey Ghost" or "the Phantasm" for Bruce Wayne's heroic alter-ego.

It would just go to show how Bruce/Thomas Junior is a more pragmatic sort of villainy than others in this hypothetical superhero universe.

And Tony's accomplishments with his power armor would be considerably more impressive without having practically infinite resources at his beck and call. In this sense he'd probably be closer to Spider-Man than his OTL self.

Quite frankly you could set up a spin-off where we flesh out how the various superhero comics universes are shaped by TTL.

Alternatively you could do the classic Batman/Owlman dichotomy

 

[Meshakhad]

It's only fair. Personally, I like to think that Oswald would be something of a proto-Bugs. He should remain a bit of a rascal instead of being turned blandly nice like what happened over time to Mickey in OTL.

That works.

There could be two characters formed from Batman's character. A proletarian hero and crime fighter and a rich bastard who used his power and privilege to bully the less fortunate. They could even be brothers. Proletarian hero Bruce Wayne rejects his family legacy and becomes a hero while Thomas Wayne Jr embraces it. And that way your original idea for Bruce can coexist with mine.



It makes a fair bit of sense. Gwynplaine, the titular character of The Man Who Laughs and the inspiration for the Joker was the protagonist of the story. Bruce could ironically assist the Joker in his fight against his evil brother. I like the name "the Grey Ghost" or "the Phantasm" for Bruce Wayne's heroic alter-ego.

It would just go to show how Bruce/Thomas Junior is a more pragmatic sort of villainy than others in this hypothetical superhero universe.

And Tony's accomplishments with his power armor would be considerably more impressive without having practically infinite resources at his beck and call. In this sense he'd probably be closer to Spider-Man than his OTL self.

Quite frankly you could set up a spin-off where we flesh out how the various superhero comics universes are shaped by TTL.

That's a good idea. It can be a bit exhausting when a TL that is primarily about politics goes in depth into allohistorical media.

The one other thing I've decided is that ITTL there is no DC/Marvel dichotomy. We'll end up with a single major comic book publisher and shared universe.

Alternatively you could do the classic Batman/Owlman dichotomy

Hmm...

 

[Whiteshore]

How would the Imperial German and Austro-Hungarian navies handle the rise of the aircraft carrier ITTL?

 

[HonestAbe1809]

That works.

That's a good idea. It can be a bit exhausting when a TL that is primarily about politics goes in depth into allohistorical media.

The one other thing I've decided is that ITTL there is no DC/Marvel dichotomy. We'll end up with a single major comic book publisher and shared universe.

Hmm...

And you can make the spin-off a collaborative thread so "the audience" can help workshop how the ASU's premier superhero universe* is set-up.

*There's no reason why there can't be minor superhero comics like there being minor film studios.

Alternatively you could do the classic Batman/Owlman dichotomy

So it'd be the Joker and Batman vs Owlman. That works. My idea for the Grey Ghost/Phantasm was that it'd emphasize Bruce's title of being the "world's greatest detective"

 

[htgriffin]

Iron Man can fill the gadgeteer role (although TTL's Tony Stark obviously isn't a businessman).

Businessman? No. Gearhead with a score of vices along with the ability to fake being a smarmy unheroic sort who actually was one before a near-life-ending epiphany? Could work.

 

[Meshakhad]

How would the Imperial German and Austro-Hungarian navies handle the rise of the aircraft carrier ITTL?

Germany is still primarily concerned with defeating the Royal Navy and the Marine Nationale in the North Sea, so they might continue to focus on battleships. Alternatively, they might build some carriers to go along with their battleships. What's certain is that Germany will probably come to see air power as a potential counter to the Royal Navy. A Germany unrestricted by Versailles might shift its emphasis to flying boats and land-based bombers, using Germany itself as an "unsinkable carrier". Their plan this time might be to lure the Home Fleet into another Jutland type-battle, only to then hit them with a massive air attack from land once they're outside of RAF fighter cover.

Most likely, the Germans will probably end up opting for Plan Let The Americans Handle It.

And you can make the spin-off a collaborative thread so "the audience" can help workshop how the ASU's premier superhero universe* is set-up.

*There's no reason why there can't be minor superhero comics like there being minor film studios.



So it'd be the Joker and Batman vs Owlman. That works. My idea for the Grey Ghost/Phantasm was that it'd emphasize Bruce's title of being the "world's greatest detective"

True and true.

Businessman? No. Gearhead with a score of vices along with the ability to fake being a smarmy unheroic sort who actually was one before a near-life-ending epiphany? Could work.

I'm also thinking that this incarnation of Tony Stark is actually a veteran but either left the military entirely or moved over to whatever the ASU's version of DARPA is. Rhodey served with him early in his career but stayed in the combat arms.

 

[Whiteshore]

Germany is still primarily concerned with defeating the Royal Navy and the Marine Nationale in the North Sea, so they might continue to focus on battleships. Alternatively, they might build some carriers to go along with their battleships. What's certain is that Germany will probably come to see air power as a potential counter to the Royal Navy. A Germany unrestricted by Versailles might shift its emphasis to flying boats and land-based bombers, using Germany itself as an "unsinkable carrier". Their plan this time might be to lure the Home Fleet into another Jutland type-battle, only to then hit them with a massive air attack from land once they're outside of RAF fighter cover.

Maybe during TTL's Cold War-equivalent, the Germans adopt Soviet-style naval tactics in terms of focusing on using submarines and surface ships armed with long-range anti-ship missiles to counter American carrier superiority, on that note?

 

[Meshakhad]

Maybe during TTL's Cold War-equivalent, the Germans adopt Soviet-style naval tactics in terms of focusing on using submarines and surface ships armed with long-range anti-ship missiles to counter American carrier superiority, on that note?

Possible, but Germany will still have colonies of their own. Also, my current outline for what Cold War Europe looks like has very few socialist nations actually in Europe.

Eh, I'll leave it aside for now. We've got ages before we get to the Cold War.

 

[Zeca Urubu]

Btw, on the topic of comics, considering the progressive sentiment of the new government on regards to racial equality, we get a black superhero much earlier than IOTL right?

 

[Mayukh]

Possible, but Germany will still have colonies of their own. Also, my current outline for what Cold War Europe looks like has very few socialist nations actually in Europe.

Eh, I'll leave it aside for now. We've got ages before we get to the Cold War.

So is the Cold War going on currently ittl 2023?

 

[Mayukh]

Btw, on the topic of comics, considering the progressive sentiment of the new government on regards to racial equality, we get a black superhero much earlier than IOTL right?

Leave that untill ww2.

 

[Meshakhad]

Btw, on the topic of comics, considering the progressive sentiment of the new government on regards to racial equality, we get a black superhero much earlier than IOTL right?

Oh, absolutely. And when William Moulton Marsten creates Wonder Woman, we can expect her to be gay from the start (although that will be controversial at the time).

So is the Cold War going on currently ittl 2023?

Unsure. If it is, it'll be nearing the end. One of the big questions I have yet to answer is how long will capitalism endure with large portions of the world under socialist rule and thus no longer available for exploitation.

 

[Mayukh]

Unsure. If it is, it'll be nearing the end. One of the big questions I have yet to answer is how long will capitalism endure with large portions of the world under socialist rule and thus no longer available for exploitation.

Is the number Socialist Nations more than the height of Soviet Power in otl Cold War?

 

[NotStaleBread]

How is Marxism viewed ITTL? America seems to be working under a market socialist system in the long-haul, which seems to indicate that Marxism isn't that big a thing here. In Reds, of course, the general ideology of that America was mostly Marxist with a dash of anarchism. What's the ideological situation in this America like? Are most people in agreement that a statist market socialist society is, if not ideal, then what is practical? Is there a significant undercurrent of anarchists, Marxists, etc. who want to push further, but the status quo is upheld because of disagreement about goals? What sort of alt ideologies, counter-cultures, etc. will develop, in the context of this society? These are pretty big questions so I don't really expect an answer, but I thought they would be interesting questions to bring up when considering the future.

 

[piratedude]

How is Marxism viewed ITTL? America seems to be working under a market socialist system in the long-haul, which seems to indicate that Marxism isn't that big a thing here

Well, iirc DeLeon considered himself a Marxist, and The SLP has stuck pretty close to his ideology for the most part and is the dominant political party at the current point of the TL

 

[Born in the USSA]

Well, iirc DeLeon considered himself a Marxist, and The SLP has stuck pretty close to his ideology for the most part and is the dominant political party at the current point of the TL

Pretty much this, there just won't be the overwhelming dominance of Marxist-Leninism and it's offshoots on the left that we had OTL.

 

[the Imperium of Canada]

I figure the difference between "reformist" and "radical" socialism is going to be extremely muddled compared to OTL without the sheer ideological dominance of Marxism-Leninism and the SPD not having the chance to send in right wing death squads to slaughter revolutionaries.