The Fatherland - a Nazi victory TL
- Thread starter Onkel Willie
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Just finished reading it. So the Reich didn't collapse either but perhaps not for another few decades
I assume the "Germanized" slavs are German speakers by now, especially given their full citizenship?
I think interestingly when or "if" it does collapse, all Nazi goals for europe will have been achieved. So in a future Democratic Greater Germany, the lebensraum may be taught similar to manifest destiny. It is virtually confirmed by the author that Germanization did unfortunately succeed in eastern Europe, so I think it wouldn't be a USSR style collapse but a carnation style revolution. Given China had a democratic revolution, it will be similar in character (assuming it does indeed occur.)
Is Norway under a quisling regime? Granted vidkuns long dead but I mean the NS regime.
Well yes I could see other means for its rival to fuel to the collapse of the Greater German Reich.
Slavs are fully assimlated, and the population indoctrinated. Civil war is also unlikely and a user gave reasons for that earlier. The options are basically a carnation revolution or whatnot. Nonetheless, even if it does collapse at some pint, its legacy will remain and Greater Germany will also remain. The changes in the east are unfortunately too late to even slightly reverse back to slavic self rule given all of the slavs are either dead or germanized.
Edit: A lot of people tend to forget that this timeline intends Nazi Germany to survive for the forseeable future. Yes, they have had unimaginal luck, but they made it through the most difficult years and are now self sufficient. It seems a lot of people who insist on a civil war and collapse simply want some form of justice in the end. History has proven that isn't the case always, and not many in America find much remorse over the "manifest" destiny, as that is "just history." Same will likely go in Germany, however in a more nasty nature in many ways, given epidemics didn't help to the extent it did in america. Naturally even in America few find the crimes in westward expansion a *good* thing perse, but no one desire reverse ethnically cleansing it and giving it back to the Native peoples. Germanies is much more nasty, but it is simply accepted fact that it is all done by now, hence this is a dystopia. While a civil war is unlikely, (given someone went over the plausbility issues with that because while the nazis are evil by now they are pragmatic and lack the stupid virus that people want them to aqquire back) if it did happen, it would backfire on everyone, as centuries of racist indoctrination will likely lead to even more fucked up nazis (think himmlers burgundy SS state in TNO) and the nuclear arsenal in the hands of any extremist faction could turn the earth into Mercury. I retain my belief a carnation style revolution is needed, and it needs a good trigger. OTL portugal had colonial wars, Soviets had afghanistan, so nazis could get into a quagmire that causes its citizens to question the immortal virtues they were taught. And sadly, homogenity has been achieved, at least culturally by now as confirmed by late chapters, with surviving Slavs fully integrated by now and cutlurally germanized. It is a tradegy given the genocide on every level, but unfortunately this is a case when "too late" is the reason.
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Also not my picture, but given that the author hinted at leopard II on steriod style being this timelines Wehrmacht tanks given they are far from the soviet model in tank production, this would be a good modern/near future Wehrmacht tank
So how the U.S. Armed Forces look like in this TL? Same as OTL?
How about the German military?
How about the German military?
Bookmark1995
Banned
The sad truth is this: it is possible for a lot of nasty people to not only die peacefully, but their evil is swept under the rug.
OTL Turkey has not only gotten away with genocide, it has gotten away with denial.
OTL Belgium still celebrates King Leopold despite his crimes being astronomical.
While I personally don't believe a surviving Reich is sustainable, a collapse is not a guarantee. Life and nature doesn't always reward those who are kind and merciful.
A reich is not normally sustainable, but this Reich got it through the hardest years through sheer luck and has achieved the most difficult goal (generalplan ost) A collapse could happen, but via a carnation style revolution after a drawn out exhausting war.
US military same as otl, the writer said that for the German military, it is this:
For the air force stealth capabilities and fifth generation fighters, for the navy it is large as in over ten aircraft carriers, it also hinted tanks will not follow otl soviet style, hence why in my post the modern wehrmacht tank concept I sent was meant to be what the writer conveyed "Leopard II on steroids."
Here are his quotes
"As far as uniforms go, I'd say modernized versions of what they were using in WW II. The air force has strategic bombers, stealth capability and fifth generation jetfighters while the Kriegsmarine has a naval air arm with about ten super aircraft carriers. In the area of tanks, Germany still goes with quality over quantity, so the Panzers definitely aren't equivalents of OTL's Soviet tanks. Think Leopard II on steroids."
In terms of modern SS soldiers, it would look something like this:
Or this, minus the funky looking night vision and probably with a helmet cover
Wehrmacht would be similar, but replace SS symbolism with Wehrmacht colors and symbolism. For parades the traditional Waffenrock would still be used in all likelyhood.
I also imagine the U.S. Navy having twice the number of carriers. So we'd see more CVNs while the Midway-class carriers or the Kitty Hawk-class carrier remain in service well into the 2010s.
Bookmark1995
Banned
To me, there are several endgames for a TTL Third Reich, ranging from "best case" to "worst case":
1. Carnation Revolution/Velvet Revolution
An economically stagnant, socially divided, and crumbling Reich comes apart under a wave of peaceful protest, with soldiers disobeying orders, and a (relatively) peaceful abdication by a Fuhrer who accepts change.
2. Civil War
The Reich collapses violently into a civil conflict, as different factions (either liberal reformers, radical revolutionaries, or different groups of Nazis) vie for control of the German state. The brutality and violence makes the Russian Civil War look like something cozy. Remembering, the people who are fighting this war will have participated in something HORRIBLE!
3. A Reformed (but still immoral) Reich.
A reformist Nazi manages to do to Nazi Germany what Deng Xiaoping did to the PRC: turn an ideologically violent nation into something more pragmatic and tolerable.
This reformed Nazi Germany is economically prosperous, has toned down its oppression, and is more willing to accept the outside world.
Make no mistake: it is still a Reich that brutalizes politically opponents, celebrates the madmen who helped created it, and is unapologetic about its horrible past. The Slavic an Jewish people are still blamed for their own extermination. Considering how the PRC steals organs from prisoners, it is likely the Reich is hiding its own brutal experiments behind closed doors.
4. A successful Nazi Reich.
The scenario in this TL: the Reich succeeds in exterminating the Untermesnchen and achieving lebensraum. They are able to use the lands they stole from the Slavic people to achieve their dream of self-sufficiency.
5. A nuclear war
In a world where the Nazis achieve the bomb, it is very possible for a deranged Nazi leadership to destroy the world with a nuclear weapon. Unlike the Soviets, the Nazis may not dial-back their agenda for geopolitical pragmatism.
My belief is that Nazi civil war is the most realistic scenario. Simply put, the Nazis was an ideology that celebrates Social Darwinist, struggling for power, and achieving dominance. Any attempt to modify that would be met with harsh opposition by some unhinged faction.
You know the PRC is quite like that along with post-Stalinist USSR, still being totalitarian crap places despite good living standards to an extent; and given what the PRC is doing to the Uyghurs and Hong Kongers, this scenario sounds less chilling and more familiar yet depressing (along with the TL in question).
Bookmark1995
Banned
Let us not forget the persecution of Tibetans. And the PRC's "Social Credit System" which is something the Nazis could only dream about.
Although I believe that these repressions (from Social Credit to ethnic persecutions to Xi Jinping's consolidation of power) and the expansion of the military are a sign that China's economy is on the verge of a major collapse.
Perhaps the PRC-model of authoritarian capitalism is starting to run its course, proving that even reformed tyranny is still not very stable.
Four has already happened, the Slavs are either dead or germanized. Option 2 will likely result in option five for a number of reasons to be honest. Three and one are the best case, but if anything it seems to be moving in the direction of four, and is already there in terms of the east.
The PRC is not on the verge of collapse, nor will it go the other extreme and overtake America. It will face something similar to Japan’s population and economic decline on a much larger scale to be honest.
Bookmark1995
Banned
I do see Xi taking off the kid gloves and snapping over references to Winnie the Pooh to be a sign of trouble on the horizon.
Again, Generalplan Ost could've have worked...but the other issue is that there is external enemy on whom the Nazis can blame their problem, and more generations of Germans who could easily be sneaking Western media and stuff.
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