The Fascist Axis against Nazi Germany.

Lokari

Banned
An underused POD is the initial hostility of Mussolini to Hitler and the potential of war over Anschluss by Italy.

Let's take it further-imagine that Poland is not ruled by authoritarian Pilsudski faction, but from later 1920s fascist far right manages to gain control and creates a quasi-fasist regime based on Catholicism and anti-Bolshevism similiar to movements in Italy and later in Franco's Spain. With the war in Spain fascist leaders sign declaration of their joint support in fight against Bolshevism and revolutionary movements.
Culturally the movements of Spain, Italy and Poland would be more similiar to each other then to Nazism, based more on catholic far right and less on ideas of racial theories.

With this the demand for Austria is butterflied till 1939 and when it comes Italy and Poland threaten war if Germany makes it moves. Hitler neverthless does so and war begins.

What happens next ?

The positions are:

Nazi Germany vs Fascist Poland and Fascist Italy. Spain still too weak after civil war, would support with volunteers and supplies.
 
Y'know, I like this concept. Beating the crap out of Hitler is always good and having this done by OTLs allies (and Poland) is even better.

I think that the British will propably stay neutral, since they don't want to mess around on the continent. This also depends on Chamberlain and his state of mind and body, but only in a minor fashion.

France might join, just to kick German ass, but that would not look so good in terms of prestige, so they just might send a few inofficial volunteers.

SU will do nothing, because of the facists.

Germany would be beaten because of the encirclement and Hitler would likely be replaced by a militarist like Canaris or Beck.

So overall, Facism survives until the death of the moose and Franco, but the WW2 atrocities commited by the Nazis would be averted, so Europe is a bit nicer to live in, if Stalin doesn't wage war.
 
I doubt Spain would do anything at all, too soon after civil war and all. Suppose Italy can ask for some of its toys back but doubt it. You could replace Spain with Hungary and Austria though, both were fascist at this time, and both had great relations with Italy.

Alot depends on whether anschluss actually happens and whether Germany would have the support of Austria or having to fight Austria at the same time.
 
hitler would have to move very quickly as it was now stuck in a two front war cosidering that germany was already far more powerful then both countries it would benefit germany because under the guise it was getting rid evil in these countries, so the allies dont get involved.

hitlers first move would be to take italy because it being the centre of power of this new union of countries but also attacking danzing and cutting off any supplies to poland or help from its allies.
 
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hitler would have to move very quickly as it was now stuck in a two front war cosidering that germany was already far more powerful then both countries it would benefit germany because under the guise it was getting rid evil in these countries, so the allies dont get involved.

hitlers first move would be to take italy because it being the centre of power of this knew union of countries but also attacking danzing and cutting off any supplies to poland or help from allies.

Amazingly enough Germany might need to copy its ww1 strategy (assuming no France and Austria joining Germany and not coalition forces). Hold off the Italians (the stronger power) while attempting to deliver a quick blow to the Poles.

Also to your first comment, Germany isnt that much bigger than their armies in early 1939.
 
Smigly-Rydz would definiately back Mussolini's play if he decided to back Austria. Hungary's an iffier proposition though as as mentioned they were friendly to both Germany and Italy. To be honest, I think they'd sit this one out, though if they had to pick sides, I suppose Italy is the more long time ally, not to mention being in the right.

Britain isn't going to want to get any more involved beyond waving to Mussolini and saying good luck. The Czechs may actually get involved as Hitler was already starting to stir up a mess in the Sudenland by this point. Not involved enough for a declaration of war, but clamp down on Hitler's supporters there and unofficially give Italy and Austria some assistance is reasonable.

Spain's not going to get involved one way or the other with the Spanish Civil War having just ended. France may get involved, for the sake of beating the Hun, though I think they'd just sit out and send some moral support and maybe some munitions Austria and Italy's way. If Austria or Poland get into trouble, they may get involved more directly though.

As mentioned before, both sides will have difficulty projecting power deep into the enemy's territory. Also mentioned, it seems to me, Germany's best bet would be not to push for an offensive in the Alps, standing on the defensive and focusing on Poland. The only problem with this scenario is, if it looks like the Germans are making serious headways into Poland, either France or the Soviets may jump in. And if the Soviets jump in, they probably won't be giving anything they 'liberate' back.
 

The Vulture

Banned
This is an original idea, I'll say that.

I've got to ask someone more knowledgeable than I: who would Romania and Bulgaria side with?
 
This is an original idea, I'll say that.

I've got to ask someone more knowledgeable than I: who would Romania and Bulgaria side with?

The Vulture

Depending on the butterflies I would say Romania would probably side with the anti-German bloc. Historically they had an alliance with Poland, unless that was changed by events. Other factor might be they end up on the opposite side to Hungary. Talking here about which side they favour, probably not actual military support.

With Bulgaria, if they feel strong enough, whatever side is opposed to Romania and/or Yugoslavia.;)

Steve
 
Of course, we need to consider the Soviets in all this. Could they try to swoop in onto Eastern Europe while its distracted with the Germans, especially if Germany works out some kind of Molotov-Ribbentropesque Pact to save themselves?
 

King Thomas

Banned
Italy's armed forces are crap but they have the Alps to protect them.

Poland's armed forces are probebly better but they have the USSR behind them. Of course the USSR will only move in if Poland is badly hurt, but do Poland's ruler's know it?

Germany has plans for blitzkreig...but without the resouces of Austria or Czechoslovakia can it live up to them?

Spain is too tired to support Germany directly, whilst the USSR is too injured by Stalin's purges to act against an uninjured Poland.

Will France act against Germany? Or say neuteral? Or declare war and cower behind the Maginot line?
 
Italy's armed forces are crap but they have the Alps to protect them.
On the other hand Germany+Austria are defend by the Alps as well. Assuming Austria is feeling pro Germany. And you know Mussolini, do you really think he is going to be satisfied just siting behind the alps?
 
austria is going to feel pro german for sure and that apart from getting germany involved in first world war. and also i doudt france would want to get involved considering that it suffered dreadfully during the first world war. also even though germany wasnt as advanced as it was in 1939 i think it could pull victory out of its hat.
 
good point with facist poland they may not even declare war but that may make them look bad in the word stage and causing no support from the french
 
exactly my point even though germany wouldnt be as powerful as it could be poland and italy were still useless
 

Rush Tarquin

Gone Fishin'
Italian fascism wasn't as 'Catholic' as the Spanish or even Austrian varieties, so that seems like a strange lynchpin. Then again, the imperatives of geopolitics have been known to bring about far stranger ideological 'realignments'.
 
Remember people, this is 1937 we're talking about. Germany had just barely begun to rearm. They're completely lacking on quanity of troops and quality had only just begun to rise.

Italy and Poland both had armies comparable in size and equipment to Germany's at this point. If anything, I'd say Italy has the advantage since they had just mobilized for war against Ethiopia and hadn't downsized. When you consider a two front war, plus the fact that they can't leave their Western border unguarded, Germany's going to be spread very thin.

When you look at things industrally, Germany isn't the war machine of the early 1940's yet, not even close. To say nothing of where they're going to be getting their oil, as the Soviets aren't going to sell to them, and Romania stands to be Mussolini and Ridz-Smigly's primary suppliers.

So long as this war doesn't drag past 1938, the Soviets likely won't be feeling too aggressive given they're in the middle of the purges at this time.

So Austria's going to be a bloody mess, caught between Hitler and Mussolini, not to mention a likely civil war, with neither side really making much headway.

Poland will be more interesting. Germany would do well with a strategy to focus on them. Though this would mean pulling men from the Austrian or Western fronts probably. Can they afford to do this? Not to mention even if they do, it's not the German Army that cut them to pieces in 1939 yet. The Polish Army likely will be able to hold it's own. Even if Germany does make some serious headways into Poland, won't that only bring France into the fold?

To say nothing of the fact that there will be some anti-Hitler movements the longer this war drags on. He's had two less years to consolidate his personal hold on Germany at this point.
 
Really? for some reason I assumed the war would be on March of 1938...

My mistake, got it in my head for some reason Anschluss took place in 1937 for some reason.

I do think my point still stands though about Germany being no where near ready for a prolonged war, though.
 
its we've got that sorted but still germany would be in a far better situation but also it may deped on when italy threatens germany if it was earlier iy may give germany time to get ready and devise a plan rather then straight to defense
 
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