The fall of Nazi Germany rise of German army 1941

That was because matuline said that.... in general the idea of civil was is almost as ASB as another one.... in the short term in your scenario, Germany will be like 1917, a semi de facto military dictadorship with still a very rump parliament of the non-nazi groups as long the war endure.

the most common effect... the Army need a political victory in the german volks, for that they will demand all 1914 borders(that means Eltass Lothrigen) plus the Nazi Conquest(very good industrial areas and can be a good political shot), but again.. the frenchmen are arrogant as ever.

in the shorterm... no Barbarossa too, that was hitler mad idea. if the Soviets antagonize so much.. the Ostwall is the best idea and plan a repetition of the last war campain... few but very careful steps in russia territory when their army start to bleed, and without the surprise effect and the nazi genocide... the soviets can suffer their own civil war by the way.
I see man...Ty Nivek with this TL I'm Learning much more from you guys about the time period:):) Ok then, in the peace terms Thasts what the generals want..... Don't worry the civil war is almost over, my main goal in this TL is to create a Geemany where the Genocide of 6 million doesn't occur, where the Nazis are gone, and for their to excist a united Germany with Pre 1914 borders and an end to the WWII on the European front.......
 
I see man...Ty Nivek with this TL I'm Learning much more from you guys about the time period:):) Ok then, in the peace terms Thasts what the generals want..... Don't worry the civil war is almost over, my main goal in this TL is to create a Geemany where the Genocide of 6 million doesn't occur, where the Nazis are gone, and for their to excist a united Germany with Pre 1914 borders and an end to the WWII on the European front.......

Well, interesting appoach.. but the genocied of 6 millons(of Slavs ,Poles and jewish in that orden of signifcance) will not happen with the main POD(the end of Nazi leadership pre barbarossa), but the war is still the war of revenge in the german minds.. and without the resource waste of the genocide.. that means more resource even with some promise... more manpower to germany.
 
Well, interesting appoach.. but the genocied of 6 millons(of Slavs ,Poles and jewish in that orden of signifcance) will not happen with the main POD(the end of Nazi leadership pre barbarossa), but the war is still the war of revenge in the german minds.. and without the resource waste of the genocide.. that means more resource even with some promise... more manpower to germany.

Yeah, I hope I don't get banned for this, plz if it is rude in anyway or Nazisympathethic plz le me know, because Then it would be unintentionally, what I was planning is that instead of those camps, what Germany does is instead promise the Jews that they will gain back all rights if they fight for GermNy and same for all PolesGypsies and Slavs, and any such people, and convince Jewish sh bankers that ther properties would be restored if they funded Germany and promised criminals freedom should they fight the war, then these people shall be sent to front lines, Meaning less loss for Germany, Thinka about it, Then Germany would instantly get Millions of new recruits, no waste on camps and the people would be useful in the war, and so then no German person will be accused of camps..... Srry if it's too Nazilike( I despise Nazis) just curious,:(
 
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Xanth

Banned
The leadership of July 20th Plot resistance wanted to end the camps, but they didn't forsee equal rights for Jews in Germany. They were to be stripped of the German citizenship(with some exceptions) and deported from Germany(the plotters candidate for Chancellor-Goerdeler proposed South America).
 
Yeah, I hope I don't get banned for this, plz if it is rude in anyway or Nazisympathethic plz le me know, because Then it would be unintentionally, what I was planning is that instead of those camps, what Germany does is instead promise the Jews that they will gain back all rights if they fight for Nazi Germany, Same to all Poles, Gypsies and Slavs, and any such people, and convince Jewish bankers that ther properties would be restored if they funded Germany, and promised criminals freedom should they fight the war, then these people shall be sent to front lines, Meaning less loss for Germany, Thinka about it, Then Germany would instantly get Millions of new recruits, no waste on camps and the people would be useful in the war, and so then no German person will be accused of camps..... Srry if it's too Nazilike( I despise Nazis) just curious,:(

We are not in the paradox forum, you can talk more smothly about the historical true with details.. but avoid the excesive flame, direct insult and a log etc.

Any non Nazi group will revert to the situation pre war... still some mistrust for some minorties but with the war... they need every men aviable, in general they will recover all their rights as much they are patriots(as Xhatq say)

well that are my thought
 

Xanth

Banned
Any non Nazi group will revert to the situation pre war... still some mistrust for some minorties but with the war... they need every men aviable, in general they will recover all their rights as much they are patriots(as Xhatq say)

http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-bankier-f02.htm
Upon reading these documents, it is hard not to see the commonalties between Abegg's schemes and the plans for the Jews of the German conservative opposition in the Third Reich, formulated by Carl Goerdeler and by Constantin von Dietze. For Goerdeler, the solution of the Jewish question after the war was the establishment of a Jewish state in parts of Canada or South America and granting German citizenship only to a small, elitist minority of Jews willing to assimilate completely. Likewise, Constantin von Dietze, of the Freiburg circle, made legal discrimination conditional on the number of Jews returning to Germany, and believed that discrimination was unnecessary because "the number of surviving returning Jews would be so small that they would pose no threat to the German people."[SIZE=-2]13[/SIZE]
It is important to point out that people like Abegg, Goerdeler, and von Dietze were all anti-Nazis. Yet, when it came to the Jewish question, beneath their superficial formal opposition to Nazi anti-Semitism, they basically approved, on pragmatic grounds, legal discriminatory measures against the Jews. They would evidently not subscribe to the crude stereotypes that placed the Jews outside the universe of moral obligation, yet viewed them as a category that was separate from their realm, thus perpetuating the myths of Jewish otherness. Their solutions for postwar German Jews are typical of those who understood that since the state was to be both German-Christian and constitutional, Jews who wished to be citizens and maintain their Judaism would have to accept an inferior status.
 
The communist invaded central Germany in Septembe what occured was a series of bloody battles that cost millions of Germans there lives as brother fought brother, Father fought son, Cousin fought cousin, But finnaly Baden the Last stronghold of The Nazis was seized by the commies and the Kochs were murdered, However at this moment the Army attacked in a succesfull strike the tired communists stood no chance against the superior army and soon State after state fell to the German Wehmerhacht( srry for Mispel) Lubek was pleased everything was going perfectly, shocked the Communists made little ressistance and by March the civil war was
over but at a terrible price, over 8 million germans lay dead, thousands wounded, the imfastructure broken, however Germany remained intact and in August the famous treaty of Berlin was signed by the Allies and Axis; Germany would get to keep it's pre 1914 borders unreturned for the military establishing a democratic gov in Germany, Which they could lead, Soon the ewar was over and Lubek now turned to fixing the Germany, Kaiser Willheilm IIi was brought and soon a constitutional Monarchy was exhbited in Germany the war ws oer at last.
 
net result: bitter civil war

That is a cliche, in fact the germans the less than want is a internal war when fighting a foreing war...

It could be that it is a cliche.
But it is Manstein's opinon on the matter, and i reckon he knew a thing or two on the state of affairs.
maybe he was trying to justify himself for not having attempted the assassination himself, but he cannot surely be considered a stauch nazi supporter
 
Considering the situation in 1941 pre-Barbarossa (which I assume is when the assassination occurs from your statements, even though you seem to have pinned the date in August of 1941, "just after the fall of France") I expect the general German reaction to Hitler's death would be more along the lines of "Nation united in mourning of Fuhrer's death." In 1941 Hitler as at his highest point, and even the army is grudgingly pleased with the Nazis for managing to beat Poland and France; there is no reason for them to make a move against the Nazis or Hitler at this time.

For that matter, von Stauffenberg himself did not even join the anti-Nazi movement until Barbarossa turned sour and he got a first-hand look at what the Einsatzgruppen were up to. A man who was, at the time, a German nationalist with some doubts about the Nazis who nonetheless felt bound by his personal oath of loyalty to Adlof Hitler would not decide to launch a suicide attack.

Personally, I think the most likely result of Hitler being assassinated any time before Stalingrad is a relatively smooth transition of power to Göring. At the time he was still Hitler's heir-apparent, the military would like a former war hero much better than any of the other Nazis, and he had quite a bit of personal charisma.
 
Let's move out of Germany for now and look at The state of Russia, Now Stalin was enraged at what had happened and claimed western Europe was out to ruin him, so in order to set up communist gov he soon created an Eastern pact beetween Eastern Europe against the Western Europeans, Stalin was planning on taking oce Germany and he saw his chance, Germany was greatly weakeand and France lay in Ruins, this meant that all of western Europe was in ruins and Stalin gambled, Soviet troops would invade Germany with an assault before declaring war then the millions of soldiers would march into France and then Western Europe would be his, the generals promised that at the current state of affairs such a thing would happen. So in 1942 German defense units were growing at an incoming force, caught by surprise Prussia was suddenly invaded by Red troops, shocking the world and due to the little German ressistance Soon all of Prussia fell, Churchil could not beleive what had happened and lay in shock by 1943 the british semtthe ultimatum to Russsia but it was too late. the soviets encountered fierce ressistance in Germany, Manstein and other brilliant generals led stunning victories against the red army while luftwafta fighters fought fiercly against the Red Airforce, However it was all futile, Germany had lost a huge percentage of it's population in the civil war and lay in ruins so the Army knew they were fighting an unwinnable battle but refused to surrender, Luubek made speeches daily visited the front encouraging the soldiers the invetable would occur but Germany would figh to the last man against the U.S.S.R. terrible news reached Luubek, German spies had found out that thousands of German prisoners were dying in Gulags of exchaustion and cold, realizing he could gain international favor Lubek soon put the photos internattionally criticizing the Gulags, The world was shocked and immede outcrys were against Stalin but he ignored them all soon another wave of troops were arriving from Russia a massive army of 3 million led by a brilliant general Georgy Zhukov Germany would fall and should all of Germany be depopulated so be it.......... more events occured the German Jews realizing their cities were being destroyed and buisnesses broken soon united be it Jews, Slavs, or German poles, all Of Germany was uniting working together for a common cause, to save their nation and their home from the red onslaught.
 
It could be that it is a cliche.
But it is Manstein's opinon on the matter, and i reckon he knew a thing or two on the state of affairs.
maybe he was trying to justify himself for not having attempted the assassination himself, but he cannot surely be considered a stauch nazi supporter

See Chengar Answer... but again goering die in the premise... the OKW is the defacto sucessor.

Again the Red Crusade cliche but better enjoy your petit timeline
 
Update it's alive!!!!!





By late June Millions of Soviet soldiers had smashed their way through Poland, the Germans fought bitterly but as one soldier replied, "to many for every 10 men we kill another 50 arrive" With German population so low The Russians reached Germany after Poland fell, Many German generals
lost thei lives notably Manstein, Raedner, Werner Von Blomberg, Fedor Von Bock, Erwin Von witzeblen, Ernst Busch, and nearly
3/4 of the German fieldmarshals lost their live fighting the Soviets, all were brutally Murdered and the soviets Smashed through Prussia, and soon invaded Northern Germany while other Russian troops attacked Austrian held Germa
ny. The fighting was fierce and Germany was in smoking ruins, as Soviets advanced deeply into German territory they met fierce ressistance and had to wipe out whole cities of people with none refusing to give up, However all was futile as The Soviet union smashed through Austria and by December all of Germany, traces of life were minimal, Only Munich, Bavria, Berlin, Vienna, and The Rhine remained in German control........ Soon the German people resorted to suicide, people strapped bombs to each other and bombed the advancing Russians as one soldier put it " You never knew what was your enemy anything moving you shoot, toys you shoot, anything and everything you shoot to survive........." Soon The seige of Vienna ended, Vienna was completly depopulated by the soviets who suffered over 800000 casualties but they pushed onwards, and Bavria fell soon after, while Munich also became completly depopulated leading to over a million soviet deaths, Luubek and the remaining general staff stared grimly at the result over 3/4 of officers commanders and soldiers in the German army was gone, the luftwafta tried desperatly to fight back the hundreds of red airforce plains..... Soon Berlin was surrounded by the soviets and the battle of Berlin began, The Germans fought desperatly and some even tied bombs to babies and threw them at the Russians while Germany refused to surrender, daily Lubek and the other generals spread encouraging speeches but it was all futile, on December. 30th 1943 Berlin was stormed by the soviets all were killed none survived, Lubek stared grimly as red troops cut him down, executing Rommel, Manstein and other German generals, With Germany silenced Stalin set his sights on a far tempting target, Vichy France........



So what is your guys opinions on the tl.....:)
 
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