The Falcon Cannot Hear: The Second American Civil War 1937-1944

[perdedor99]

True, I was getting carried away there.
Buried beneath the rhetoric though is a point: I just can't see Hitler tolerating the existence of an allied state in mainland Europe, rationality, diplomacy and strategybe damned.
His generals may try and delay him, but sooner rather than later he'll be demanding some kind of corridor or right of transit to "restore the legitimate government" of Spain.

Oh, I agree completely with you. And ERB seems to state an invasion of Spain is coming. I'm just wondering how it could happen if the French control part of the Atlantic Coast and have a continued front. ERB is very good in coming up with a plausible explanation for everything.

 

[Alex1guy]

I really don't think "need" enters into it. They've defied Hitler, they share a border, they're weak latin types who can't stand up to Aryan Men In Aryan Tanks. Send in the panzers!
What do you mean there are mountains in the way? Treason! Shoot them! Send in more men!

While I can imagine that this is exactly what Hitler will be ranting, unless they annex parts of France they can't actually hit Spain or Britain. The trade off is of course that the Allies can't do anything either. Germany may need to strong arm France into assisting them (hard) or offer concessions in order to cross French territory (kinda humiliating and therein lies the issue relying on a recently defeated enemy to co-operate completely, noone wants a supply lines running through nebulous territory). Perhaps a naval option might be possible for Germany, up the ante against shipping going to Spain?

 

[perdedor99]

While I can imagine that this is exactly what Hitler will be ranting, unless they annex parts of France they can't actually hit Spain or Britain. The trade off is of course that the Allies can't do anything either. Germany may need to strong arm France into assisting them (hard) or offer concessions in order to cross French territory (kinda humiliating and therein lies the issue relying on a recently defeated enemy to co-operate completely, noone wants a supply lines running through nebulous territory).

And IOTL the Vichy were willing to cooperate for concessions. IIRC it was Hitler's desire to humiliate France that made better cooperation impossible. It would not take too much to get them to cooperate as a friendly neutral.

 

[President Farrakhan]

I've had nightmarish thoughts of the Holocaust being mashed-up with Jim Crow since I was kid, but seeing it laid out in that "Grapes of Wrath" chapter.....Jesus.

The scariest thing is that with the horrific circumstances Ephraim Ben Raphael laid out, that "half million" genocide total is probably a real lowball number. If the Klan is already running full-blown DEATH CAMPS (minus the showers), why are Einsatzgruppen-style "operations" in the field out of the question? Yeah, they're probably already happening under the radar and there are at least 3 lonnnng years left. There's gotta be at least one Babi Yar scale massacre before Ike finishes off these devils, if for no other reason than an attempt to hide what they've done. What Madness Is This? is probably more "realistic" in this regard.

Once the photographers and newsreels get a peek at what's going on in places like Aberdeen.....you can effectively throw American Race Relations as we know them IOTL out the window. Racism is going to be 1000x more taboo, reparations will go from "academic pipe dream" to "the LEAST we can do", and the notion of Black Nationalism is going to be a hell of a lot more serious than IOTL.

Black Music is going to be a fuckload more depressing btw - I don't think too many brothers are gonna wanna sing happy Doo-Wop songs after this. Rock n Roll - assuming it even EXISTS ITTL - will retain far more of its Blues heritage. Yeah, depending on how Europe goes, Blues music might wind up ruling the world....

 

[Alex1guy]

Black Music is going to be a fuckload more depressing btw - I don't think too many brothers are gonna wanna sing happy Doo-Wop songs after this. Rock n Roll - assuming it even EXISTS ITTL - will retain far more of its Blues heritage. Yeah, depending on how Europe goes, Blues music might wind up ruling the world....

That's so true Blues music and shitty Communist brass crap.

 

[1.36]

Why not the Blues?

I'm only backing the Whites (non-fascist Whites) because they're the "least Un-American" faction out there.

Plus, if you follow the Presidential line of succession and the principle of continuity of government, Long is the true President until March 4, 1941. I can't believe I'm saying this because I HATE Huey Long but he really is...isn't the rest of the cabinet dead or AWOL or something?

Plus, I can't back the Blues because they sold their souls to the devils by openly siding with the Communists. I'd rather be dead in the streets fighting those bastards than willingly live under the ASR or the AWC. If I lived in this TL I'd be a member of the Whites who is secretly working to overthrow the Fascist elements within the faction...possibly throwing a coup against them in the immediate aftermath of the war.

 

[1.36]

More likely a Social Democratic US, with the Greens becoming a Farmer's Party(who'd I remind 1.36 are very anti lassieze-faire, considering their pro-farmer policies apparently include price controls in some instances, and anti-big business), that form a new rural flavored right-wing, with New Dealers and other types on the sidelines.

Regardless, yes, the USSR may be impacted in the style it is in Reds! with time, but its more likely they'll end up becoming a superpower that has few opponents who can match it.

Meh...my family comes from a bunch of farmers and if I was alive back then I probably wouldn't be a libertarian. At least the Greens are democratic in nature (and I don't mean the fluffy "social democracy" BS the Blues are trumpeting).

Like I said, I'm still backing the Whites from an OOC perspective but take that with a grain of salt. I'm not a fan of the whole "Fascist KKK quasi-Nazis" that are running around within the White's camp.

Overall...this is a shitty war and no matter what, I'm gonna be disappointed by the outcome lol.

 

[Van555]

. At least the Greens are democratic in nature (and I don't mean the fluffy "social democracy" BS the Blues are trumpeting).

I'm really struggling to see how the Blues are evil here they don't like the communists but they have recognized that communism is better than fascism...

 

[Alex1guy]

I'm only backing the Whites (non-fascist Whites) because they're the "least Un-American" faction out there.

Plus, if you follow the Presidential line of succession and the principle of continuity of government, Long is the true President until March 4, 1941. I can't believe I'm saying this because I HATE Huey Long but he really is...isn't the rest of the cabinet dead or AWOL or something?

Plus, I can't back the Blues because they sold their souls to the devils by openly siding with the Communists. I'd rather be dead in the streets fighting those bastards than willingly live under the ASR or the AWC. If I lived in this TL I'd be a member of the Whites who is secretly working to overthrow the Fascist elements within the faction...possibly throwing a coup against them in the immediate aftermath of the war.

I thoguht the legitimate President resided with the blues? Aren't they lead by the next in line? Long is a civilian, but AFAIK isn't his claim illegitimate?
Also at least the Communists aren't conducting genocide, Long should hang for that and so should his government. I mean if his faction is the "most American" then the United States deserves to remain balkanized forever :/

 

[1.36]

I'm really struggling to see how the Blues are evil here they don't like the communists but they have recognized that communism is better than fascism...

Except it's not? Maybe it's better than Nazism (what a high bar to pass ) but simple Fascism? Well at least you can own a business in Fascist Italy and not fear that you'll be dragged out to Siberia because Stalin didn't like the way your name sounded in the latest census records... (We are really deciding which shit pile to eat here...I can't believe I'm arguing that Fascism is better than Communism....that's like arguing that Breast Cancer is better than Testicular Cancer)

I will not back anyone who openly allies with Communists the way the Blues did. There's a difference between being allies of convenience and basically embracing the ideology you're only tentatively supporting out of necessity. The Red Oak Pact kinda crossed that line in my opinion and I would never approve of something like that. It doesn't help that the Blues are mostly Socialists anyway (an ideology I detest).

I'm not saying the Whites are good guys. There's clearly NO good guys here...I'm just saying that in the words of many of the Khaki officers who defected to them, the Whites are the "least un-American option". I say this as a man who utterly loath Huey Long too. It's not about that though, it's that the Reds have literally no legal leg to stand on and the Blues are blatantly ignoring the Presidential line of succession. I'm all about legality and the Constitution is still the supreme law of the land in my opinion. That makes Long the true President, as much as I hate to admit it (though some other cabinet officials may be alive that we don't know of). From an ideological and legal standpoint, I kinda have to back the (non-Fascist) Whites. I'm not gonna touch the Reds with a ten-foot pole and the Blues have, again as I've said before, sold their souls to the devil by making friends with the Reds. They are the last people I'd ever trust....especially since many Communists are likely preparing to stab them in the back as soon as the Whites are defeated.

 

[1.36]

I thoguht the legitimate President resided with the blues? Aren't they lead by the next in line? Long is a civilian, but ASAIK isn't his claim illegitimate?
Also at least the Communists aren't conducting genocide, Long should hang for that and so should his government. I mean if his faction is the "most American" then the United States deserves to remain balkanized forever :/

Oh HELL YES they should hang...just right after they wipe the floor with Chicago and New York.

We need another coup to take place right at the end of this Civil War...

 

[1.36]

Maybe I'll get lucky and Ayn Rand will invade the US.

 

[Alex1guy]

Except it's not? Maybe it's better than Nazism (what a high bar to pass ) but simple Fascism? Well at least you can own a business in Fascist Italy and not fear that you'll be dragged out to Siberia because Stalin didn't like the way your name sounded in the latest census records... (We are really deciding which shit pile to eat here...I can't believe I'm arguing that Fascism is better than Communism....that's like arguing that Breast Cancer is better than Testicular Cancer)

I will not back anyone who openly allies with Communists the way the Blues did. There's a difference between being allies of convenience and basically embracing the ideology you're only tentatively supporting out of necessity. The Red Oak Pact kinda crossed that line in my opinion and I would never approve of something like that. It doesn't help that the Blues are mostly Socialists anyway (an ideology I detest).

I'm not saying the Whites are good guys. There's clearly NO good guys here...I'm just saying that in the words of many of the Khaki officers who defected to them, the Whites are the "least un-American option". I say this as a man who utterly loath Huey Long too. It's not about that though, it's that the Reds have literally no legal leg to stand on and the Blues are blatantly ignoring the Presidential line of succession. I'm all about legality and the Constitution is still the supreme law of the land in my opinion. That makes Long the true President, as much as I hate to admit it (though some other cabinet officials may be alive that we don't know of). From an ideological and legal standpoint, I kinda have to back the (non-Fascist) Whites. I'm not gonna touch the Reds with a ten-foot pole and the Blues have, again as I've said before, sold their souls to the devil by making friends with the Reds. They are the last people I'd ever trust....especially since many Communists are likely preparing to stab them in the back as soon as the Whites are defeated.

I dont think allying with the Communists is as horrible as you make. I have a feeling American style Communism would differ heavily from the Stalism or Maoism that we are familliar with. While the storming of the White House was hugely disruptive, this was representative of a frustration by people who's government has done nothing but let them down for the last decade and those frustrations deserved to be addressed.

I also think the Whites have ruined their legitimacy with a lot of Americans. While race relations were pretty poor, most people probably wouldn't be happy with putting blacks in camps. The crimes that the whites have committed are beyond raproach and any government that condones or allows such henious crimes do not deserve to run anything. If being American means the genocide of people based on the colour of their skin, then you are only setting up for Civil War 3.0 in the future. I imagine millions of Americans would be disgusted by the White government and many I imagine would never look past it. If the whites win, chances are the USA is going to collapse again but this time it will be a race war.

 

[bguy]

I'm really struggling to see how the Blues are evil here they don't like the communists but they have recognized that communism is better than fascism...

Didn't the Blues arrest Barry Goldwater when they took over Arizona? Arresting someone just because you disagree with their political beliefs seems pretty evil.

 

[sciscisciortino]

yeah the Stalinized Communists have been run out on the rails, I have no idea what 1.36 is talking about.

 

[Van555]

Didn't the Blues arrest Barry Goldwater when they took over Arizona? Arresting someone just because you disagree with their political beliefs seems pretty evil.

True but they are the least bad option.

 

[sciscisciortino]

Lincoln and the 1776 American Revolutionaries weren't exactly gentle with political dissidents either. Guess what happened to Loyalists...

 

[Van555]

Maybe I'll get lucky and Ayn Rand will invade the US.

Seriously?

 

[Alex1guy]

True but they are the least bad option.

They are the most moderate. I dont think the Communists have enough the support to be the legitimate government and are to extremist and the Whites I think have done too much damage and having them win will probably result in a race war and further balkanization within the next few decades.

 

[1.36]

I dont think allying with the Communists is as horrible as you make. I have a feeling American style Communism would differ heavily from the Stalism or Maoism that we are familliar with. While the storming of the White House was hugely disruptive, this was representative of a frustration by people who's government has done nothing but let them down for the last decade and those frustrations deserved to be addressed.

I also think the Whites have ruined their legitimacy with a lot of Americans. While race relations were pretty poor, most people probably wouldn't be happy with putting blacks in camps. The crimes that the whites have committed are beyond raproach and any government that condones or allows such henious crimes do not deserve to run anything. If being American means the genocide of people based on the colour of their skin, then you are only setting up for Civil War 3.0 in the future. I imagine millions of Americans would be disgusted by the White government and many I imagine would never look past it. If the whites win, chances are the USA is going to collapse again but this time it will be a race war.

These are the people who murdered the President of the United States and started the whole damn mess in the first place. They must be defeated. That's as inexcusable as the KKK murdering blacks at random in the south. Both sides are terrible, but at least the Whites have a semi-civilian government going on...and they have the backing of many military members who rejected McArthur's coup.

Sadly, you're right. I feel like the Reds are going to win simply because the Whites tied themselves to the Nazis far too much and decided to go down the route of genocide. You can't really white wash them...though I hope someone within their own rank tries to stop it before it gets even worse.