The F5 is a bigger success
- Thread starter Pangur
- Start date
In OTL yes the RAF handles anything major though since the Vampire was the last common airframe as far as I can tell then I'm not sure about their coat tails. I wonder why we didn't pick the Hawk as the light jet trainer when we had them? In regards to OTL defence there wasn't much pressing requirement to do anything else once we decided against NATO.
If you have Ireland in NATO then the situation is completely different whether it's 32 or 26 County Ireland. Even separate from Westminster I would still see Ireland common systems (for example why go down the route of having to provide the deep maintenance programs when the RAF would be running them for their own aircraft, just leverage off them)
Even if you have a full Ireland then you still have only about 4.5 million with a limited budget. In this case I can't see the Irish forces fielding a full range of modern systems (Navy, Air Force and Army) I would expect something like the new NATO countries of having niche forces to aid the rest of NATO.
Eire in Nato wouldn't be bound to be a 'client state' of the UK it could equally follow the path of Smaller NW European NATO states with Starfighters then F16s perhaps flying it;s own NATO Supported Orions ( along with the Dutch, Greek, German and Norwegians ) and contributing crew to the LX based E3 fleet for AWACS ( and latterly the NATO C17 squadron) ... or it could fly Hunters , Harriers and Jaguars , or even EX US Navy F4s as attack aircraft and contribute to the Nimrod fleet with some Irish registered and marked airframes as part of a wider pool ...
a 'Dominion Of Ireland' could see a close integration with the RAF and a cross flow of personnel between the two forces as there is a degree of cross flow between other Commonwealth Forces whether that's permanent transfers or exchange postings ...
throw in TSR 2 not being killed off and the Aussies and Canadas flying TSR2 instead of American metal flap flap flap the butterflies have really gone wild ...
Throwing open the tin of worms with 'small NATO or neutral but NATO leaning armed forces' on it and then you run the risk of the Iceland and Ireland thing ...
as others have said failure of the F104 could be a significant POD or do you see the F5 as a 'customer' aircraft for neutral but western leaning nations to buy ...
I don't want to further derail the op (sorry Pangur) but you're overestimating Ireland's abilities, the small European NATO members have either larger populations in the Cold War (Belgium, Denmark for example) or more mineral wealth (Norway), and all have more direct experience of war then Ireland would have.
Ireland in NATO would change many spending patterns in Ireland but the Cold War period had significant budget pressures and population pressures throughout the period, limiting the budget. If Ireland is in NATO there would be even more pressures from a defence budget (for example Ireland would need some kind of an upgraded Navy). That's why I'm suggesting force multiplies like Orion, tankers, AWAC's or Transports rather then a small number of fighters
it all depends to an extent also on how much support Ireland in NATO gets ...
a 'peaceful' 32 county Ireland whether it's independent, A dominion or directly ruled from Westminster may become the celtic tiger sooner, Would Shannon Airport also support a Large permanent USAFE base ?
if / when does the ITL Eire join the EU
we really are taking pangur's topic well off the mark
perhaps another topic would suit better to explore a 32 county Island of Ireland either as an independent State in NATO or as a 'further than arm's length' Dominion ( i.e 'ruled' by the house of Windsor but with it's own stand alone government)
it's the Aussies and Kiwis could probably have some fun with this as well ( with the relationship in the 'dominion' POD being much more Aus -NZ than mainland GB ruling Ireland
Thanks. That's a book I would buy. It would fit in nicely with Osprey's books on their F14 and F4 units...
F-5 was a very nimble little fighter.
Any jet sold in 2,246 copies is a success.
Any jet sold to 36 operators is a success
The jet preceeding F/A-18 cannot be all bad.
F-20 Tigershark was a direct competitor to F-16, but not as costly.
I think the Carter intervention and later Reagan killed F-20.
The other jet at tht time produced in similar numbers is, yes, F-104.
Whether that was bought due to its "superb" performance or because Mr. Strauss got a million US is another question.
Ivan
Any jet sold in 2,246 copies is a success.
Any jet sold to 36 operators is a success
The jet preceeding F/A-18 cannot be all bad.
F-20 Tigershark was a direct competitor to F-16, but not as costly.
I think the Carter intervention and later Reagan killed F-20.
The other jet at tht time produced in similar numbers is, yes, F-104.
Whether that was bought due to its "superb" performance or because Mr. Strauss got a million US is another question.
Ivan
NothingNow
Banned
How the hell did an AH-1J and an RH-53 Sea Stallion manage to shoot down a MiG-23MF with cannon and MG fire? (3Mar84 on the first table.)
There has got to be a story involved.
Probably AH-1 fired cannon at it, damaging it, then Rh-53 just added some MG fire and it crashed. That period saw heavy helicopter use by both sides, both attack and transport variants.
The Northrop N-102 Fang shared the same engine as the Starfighter but had a bigger wing and no T-tail. It reached the same level of development as the F-108 Rapier, meaning that all performance specifications are conjectural. Please keep in mind that the F-5 can't carry any useful load any useful distance.
Pangur
Donor
That's OK guys after all I did open the door with my comment about the Irish Air Corps flying the F-5 after all. The topic of Irish neutrality is one of the most misunderstood topics that I have come across. De Valera pushed the policy for hard pragmatic reasons. when ww2 broke out the war of independence was 18 years in the past and the civil war was 16 years in the past. Joining the British was going to split the country apart AGAIN. That's the major reason that he went the way he did. In the 50`s the Irish did approach the Americans re an defense pact which was rejected with the US giving the Irish the option of NATO or nothing. Had the US gone along with the idea then I could most certainly see Shannon supporting a US airbase - US Navy most likely for anti submarine work and maybe SSBN's.
Well, my TL is a bit ASBish and its PODs are already during the interwar period.
It's meant as a tongue-in-cheek project, so don't worry. Besides, even the Icelandic Air Force of the TL has a total of 5 Tigers (later replaced by the same number of Tigersharks). I think that's adequate enough. The rest are trainers and then the usual helis and maritime patrol aircraft as in OTL. Amusingly, Iceland still lacks a navy within that TL, but has a more buffed-up Coast Guard. And their army isn't too big either.They only scrapped the Skyhawks, to the horror of all NZ jet fighter fans. But the rest is working as usual. Next year, they'l even be replacing their tired old Hueys with brand new NH90s.
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to try and develop the 'Ireland stuff' away from the F-5 thread i've started a thread for it
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?p=6507265#post6507265
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?p=6507265#post6507265
Pangur
Donor
Just spotted that - I have read the OP. Its late here so I am of to bed and sleep on how to help push this along
I'd say the F5 was a success, it was a good little fighter for cheaper, lower tier wars/countries.
However it is no Mirage III, Lightning, Mig 21, F4, all of which have considerably higher performance and more lethal weapons loads. I've seen gun camera photos of a Mirage IIIO with an F111 square in it's sights, I saw a photo today in fact. I doubt the F5 could do that very often.
However it is no Mirage III, Lightning, Mig 21, F4, all of which have considerably higher performance and more lethal weapons loads. I've seen gun camera photos of a Mirage IIIO with an F111 square in it's sights, I saw a photo today in fact. I doubt the F5 could do that very often.
the lightning was originally envisaged for one role and one role only a point defence interceptor - which was how the RAF used it all it;s operational life - as for weapon load the lightning in RAF service was underdeveloped in that regard although some of the export versions weren't
the F4 is a whole different kettle of worms it's the F15 to the F5's F16 ...