The Esch Cummins Act: US Railroad Consolidation program

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by Andrew Boyd, Feb 28, 2018.

  1. Bureaucromancer Well-Known Member

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    Passenger fares had more flexibility as things were iirc, and would imo be a given if freight was deregulated. Fares were n't relaly the issue here, and what inroads CAN be made to saving passenger traffic will, imo come from infrastructure investment. Even with these changes I don't think the prospects for private sector passenger service are all that good - maybe good enough that we don't get Amtrak, but a (generally, there will certainly be locations where things work out fairly well if the railroads know they're stuck with passengers and have access to funds) thriving, healthy and privately driven American intercity passenger system seems like a stretch in any scenario where the Interstates and jetliners exist.
     
  2. Andrew Boyd Autistic, but Artistic

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    Feb 23, 2018
    Well, the TL it built from the ideas here does have trollies build lines into suburbs. Not to mention the streetcar conspiracy being exposed.
     
  3. Andrew Boyd Autistic, but Artistic

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    Here are my ideas for intermodal facilities...

    As part of his famous transport budgets, President Eisenhower ordered the creation of various intermodal facilities where rail, road, and air could all interchange cargo and passengers. To that end, the first place to make such an attempt was Chicago.

    Midway Airport was ultimately chosen to be the location. As while O'Hare was busier, the land near Midway was more vast. Which allowed more land to be used. The groundbreaking for the grand building, which hosted the airport and rail station, began in March 1955. The first railroads to relocate to the rail station were the Chicago NorthWestern, Baltimore & Ohio, and Illinois Central. All of whom sold off their respective stations to use as such things as apartments, shopping centers, and in the case of the B&O Terminal the site of the Chicago Railroad Museum.
     
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  4. Andrew Boyd Autistic, but Artistic

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    Feb 23, 2018
    Any ideas for intermodal places, @Lucas?
     
  5. Lucas Well-Known Member

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    Location:
    Brazil
    @Andrew Boyd

    For intermodal stations, First i have in mind are LAX in L.A., Logan Internacional in Boston; Dulles in D.C., open in 62, you could have project built by new standart intermodal connections by this time; Atlanta and Miami on South.

    I still don't know where could be the intermodal facilities in NYC? Where airport have land avaliable around to build?
     
  6. Andrew Boyd Autistic, but Artistic

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    Feb 23, 2018
    Good point. I guess just a station/airport at JFK international will suffice.
     
  7. Andrew Boyd Autistic, but Artistic

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    Feb 23, 2018
    Though I'd give some ideas on steam engines my TL's Burlington Northern could use in the 1980s:

    ACE 7000 4-8-2: The ACE 3000 with numerous improvements.

    ACE 8000 4-8-2+2-8-4: A condensing Garratt variation

    ACE 6000 2-10-10-0: A garratt-mallet hybrid.
     
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  8. Andrew Boyd Autistic, but Artistic

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    Feb 23, 2018
    I also thought I would share some details on Canadian steam engines in my TL. Most of which are adapted from ideas by @TheMann.

    Hint: Both Canadian railroads own 2-8-4s, while Canadian Pacific uses the original Selkirks a a design which they use to create a new class of 4-10-2 Cab Forwards.
     
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  9. Andrew Boyd Autistic, but Artistic

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    Feb 23, 2018
    Here are some ideas for Amtrak trains that use host railroads in my TL. If Amtrak does come about.

    Anyways, on to Amtrak and their host railroads: Part 1

    City of San Fransisco
    - Empire State HSR/New York Central (New York - Buffalo)
    - Amtrak Midwest (Buffalo - Chicago - St. Louis - Kansas City)
    - Southern Pacific/ex-Rock Island (Kansas City - Denver)
    - Denver & Rio Grande Western (Denver - Salt Lake City)
    - Southern Pacific/Union Pacific (Salt Lake City - Oakland/San Fransisco)

    City of San Fransisco
    - Empire State HSR/New York Central (New York - Buffalo)
    - Amtrak Midwest (Buffalo - Chicago - St. Louis - Kansas City)
    - Southern Pacific/ex-Rock Island (Kansas City - Denver)
    - Denver & Rio Grande Western (Denver - Trinidad)
    - Atchison, Topeka, & Santa Fe (Trinidad - Albuquerque - Flagstaff - Phoenix)
    - Southern Pacific/California HSR (Phoenix - Los Angeles)

    Lone Star
    - Amtrak Midwest (Chicago - St. Louis)
    - Missouri Pacific (St. Louis - Poplar Bluff)
    - Atchison, Topeka, & Santa Fe/ex-Firsco (Poplar Bluff - Memphis)
    - Southern Pacific/ex-Rock Island (Memphis - Little Rock)
    - Missouri Pacific (Little Rock - Ft.Worth/Dallas)
    - Texas Central (Ft.Worth/Dallas - San Antonio)

    City of New Orleans
    - Amtrak Midwest (Chicago - St. Louis)
    - Illinois Central (St. Louis - Memphis - Jackson)
    - Amtrak Southeast (Jackson - New Orleans)

    Empire Builder
    - Amtrak Midwest (Chicago - Twin Cities)
    - Burlington Northern/ex-Northern Pacific (Twin Cities - Seattle)

    California Zephyr
    - Amtrak Midwest (Chicago - Des Moines)
    - Southern Pacific/ex-Rock Island (Des Moines - Denver)
    - Denver & Rio Grande Western (Denver - Salt Lake City)
    - Southern Pacific/Union Pacific (Salt Lake City - Oakland/San Fransisco)

    In addition, now for some privately run trains. These still run as part of a deal where the railroads get to operate them, and help Amtrak in exchange for local and to a lesser extent federal subsidies.

    New York Central
    - Lake Shore Limited: New York - Albany - Buffalo - Cleveland - Toledo - South Bend - Chicago

    Atchison, Topeka, & Santa Fe
    - Super Chief: Chicago - Peoria - Kansas City - Wichita - Trinidad - Santa Fe - Albuquerque - Belen - Flagstaff - Los Angeles
    - Texas Chief: Chicago - Peoria - Kansas City - Wichita - Oklahoma City - Ft. Worth - College Station - Houston - Gavelston

    Rio Grande
    - Rio Grande Zephyr: Denver - Salt Lake City

    Southern
    - Crescent: Washington DC - Lynchburg - Charlotte - Atlanta - Birmingham - Meridian - New Orleans
     
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  10. Andrew Boyd Autistic, but Artistic

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    Feb 23, 2018
    What do you guys think I should do with Missouri Pacific?

    If I don't put it in with the MoPac, I can see it survive by getting up the CGW, then maybe working with either CNW (assuming UP doesn't get that). Or UP/BN.

    Personally, I like the idea of it working with the Rio Grande to shuttle freight east, freight from Mexico to shuttle north, and freight from the BN to shuttle south.
     
  11. Andrew Boyd Autistic, but Artistic

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    Feb 23, 2018
    For my next big act, I'll cover the famous 4-8-2s of my TL:

    Southern Pacific 4354
    This engine was built by the SP themselves in Sacramento, and mainly hauled passenger trains in the western half of the system. Ultimately, 4354 became the sole survivor of the class when she was saved by a preservationist group led by Disney animator Ward Kimball, and endorsed by Walt himself. She was eventually stored in a warehouse until 1975, when she was taken out for restoration. Today, she proudly treks through California, often doubleheading with the famous 4449.

    Missouri Pacific 5321
    The Missouri Pacific's MT-75 4-8-2s, of which the 5321 was a member, were 1939-1940 rebuilds of the MT-69 group delivered by ALCo in 1919. For service on its premium passenger trains the railroad's Sedalia, Missouri shops applied 75-inch disc drivers, lightweight rods and roller bearings to the engines. The MoPac was apparently proud of its creations and featured 5321 in the 1951 edition of Rand McNally's World Railways. This honor is mostly likely the reason she was marked for preservation in Sedalia alongside 4-8-4 2117, where she stood until 1981 when the MoPac, emboldened by the success of mainline steam excursions across the country, restored her for said purpose alongside the 2209, another MoPac 4-8-4. Today, she still runs on both native rails and those of the Chicago North Western, which the MoPac bought in 1985, and other railroads in the Midwest and Southeast.

    Illinois Central 2613
    Like the 5321, this engine was built by the railroad it served, and was preserved in the shop where it was built for that reason. She would be displayed in Paducah, Kentucky for several years until 1966, when she was again bought out for excursions. Unfortunately, a boiler problem sidelined her for about twenty years, but that was soon over and she has stomped across Mid-America since. Of particular note is when in 2001 she hauled the City of New Orleans, by that point an Amtrak express, from Paducah to Jackson, MS.

    Wabash 2822
    The 2822 was one of the 25 Mountains the Wabash bought rom Baldwin. She spent much of her life on freights between Montpelier, Ohio and Decatur, Illinois. Upon retirement, she was put on display in Logansport, Indiana. Which made her an ideal candidate for mainline excursion when the Indiana Transportation Museum located itself to the former interurban line down to Indianapolis. She was restored by 1979, and has often run to Ft. Wayne to meet Nickel Plate 765. Complete with the two double-heading often.

    Baltimore & Ohio 5562 and 5585
    These two T-3 Mountains were operated by B&O on mixed traffic, but mainly freight, service and during then were re-numbered 704 and 726. They were eventually retired in 1961, and were sent along with EM-1 7069/659. At which point they regained their original numbers. In 1979, the B&O decided to celebrate their 150th anniversary by running the two engines and the 7069 in excursion service. Unfortunately, the 7069 was damaged in a roundhouse fire and returned to Baltimore. But the two T-3s are still going strong, and have since ventured on to former Reading and Jersey Central tracks at times.

    New York Central 3001
    She was chosen to represent the L3 Mohawk in the "Big Three" of 1930s-1940s NYC Steam at Elkhart, IN. Eventually, she was resotred along with her stablemates Hudson 5405 and Niagara 6012. Having since met up with engines like Niagara 6015 and Dreyfuss Hudson 5445.

    Frisco 1522
    Since 1988, this engines has often work in the South. But as of late, the Santa Fe has allowed her to travel beyond native trackage to New Mexico and other places on the original, pre-Frisco takeover Santa Fe network. She was even doubleheaded with 4-8-4s 3751 and 2926 and 2-10-4 5030. She particularly operates several excursion on the Santa Fe out of Peoria or in Missouri and Kansas during the summer at times.
     
  12. Andrew Boyd Autistic, but Artistic

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    Feb 23, 2018
    I was looking at Midway airport on Google Maps, and was thinking a new station could occupy OTL's L Train yard. It's really close to the Belt Railway of Chicago yard too. So we could easily have a freight station nearby too.

    What do you guys think?
     
  13. Andrew Boyd Autistic, but Artistic

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    Feb 23, 2018
    Here's the thing with what my TL might do with passenger rail:

    Given how much I plan to revitalize urban areas during the 1940s through 1960s, I'm not convinced butterflying Amtrak is that ASB. Of course there will be need for subsidies, but that's what my budget plans ITTL are for, as well as mass de-regulation.

    In addition, I can see the railroads teaming up with airliners like what @TheMann did with NYC and PanAm. Hell, I can seven see Santa Fe getting in on the PanAm alliance as well to create a New York-Los Angeles service. The Santa Fe alone could use the advantages a train would have over a car in its advertising. Since it would be a shame for drivers to be unable to see all the western vistas.

    As for HSR, I can definitely see some privately run services. Like OTL's Virgin Trains USA in Florida. One example that comes to mind is the Southern Pacific running TTL's analogue to California HSR or the NYC in New York state. Both beginning with electrification and other upgrades in the mid 20th Century. That said, there may be need for a government-private coalition to get it running in places like the Midwest.

    Lastly, steam excursions may be bigger and start sooner than OTL.
     
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  14. Bureaucromancer Well-Known Member

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    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    If you're looking for private HSR without Amtrak I'd strongly suggest avoiding Penn Central, and doing what you can to electrify NYC - better still if you can push through the B&O/NYC merger. Healthy competition in the Northeast is almost the perfect environment for it to emerge. I could well imagine NYC Turbos competing with PRR Shinkansen derivitives.

    As for California, TBH I'd point more toward Santa Fe than SP. You're looking at one road that was early and strong in it's disaste for passengers, and another that almost didn't enter Amtrak as things were OTL. At the same time, Santa Fe had relatively high speed operations on it's transcontinental service. It's hard to see them electrifying before some sort of oil crisis without a pre-war POD, but they would be well positioned for Turbotrain type things that would most definitely quality as high speed with proper infrastructure. In California they've got problems northbound out of LA, but aside from that they've even got routes better suited for speed than the coast, and actually very similar to the current CHSR plan.

    The other interesting one to me is Milwaukee (please, for the love of all things holy find a way to keep it going, not that that's hard without management wedded to abandonment for their own reasons). This is one of the few places where more extensive electrification seems easy, and the Hiawatha's were very fast. If there is money in passengers service and capital available filling the western gaps in electrifcation shortly after the war is a no brainer. Electrifying Chicago to Minneapolis for high speed passengers is plausible, albeit probably requiring an outside push, at which point I suspect the writing is on the wall for closing the gap at some point before the turn of the century.
     
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  15. Andrew Boyd Autistic, but Artistic

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    Feb 23, 2018
    No fear. Penn Central is indeed butterflied.

    There are several things my TL will do to allow Southern Pacific do it, many of which are borrowed from @TheMann. The first one is my plan to have the SP reroute the line to Bakersfield via Santa Clarita. Besides, my TL's SP would be subsidized by the state. Nonetheless, most of this is still in development.

    Indeed my TL's MILW is saved. Mainly through stake being bought by SP and Canadian National. There's more to think about on that part though.
     
  16. Andrew Boyd Autistic, but Artistic

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    Feb 23, 2018
    I've been pondering recently. But should I have certain consolidations happen in the 1950s?

    I was thinking specifically Southern Pacific + Rock Island. With Santa Fe + Frisco happening as a direct consequence.
     
  17. Andrew Boyd Autistic, but Artistic

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    Feb 23, 2018
    If any of you are interested, I had ideas for if the Lima Standards in my main series are rebooted in the 1950s. This time using influences from South Africa, as in my TL, South African railways are standard gauge as opposed to Cape Gauge.
     
  18. Andrew Boyd Autistic, but Artistic

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    Feb 23, 2018
    Here are some possible options I had for how my TL can get Union Pacific into Chicago:

    - UP buys up Chicago Northwestern.
    - UP gets to use Southern Pacific's former Rock Island via Des Moines and Quad Cities.
    - MoPac gets the Chicago Great Western then merges with CNW. With CNW's own line being better for Chicago - Kansas City traffic, the MoPac sells UP the CGW's Chicago - Omaha line via Dubuque and then north of the state.
     
  19. isayyo2 Low Key

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    Feb 17, 2014
    Location:
    SF bay
    How about the UP directly merging/buying the CGW instead of their OTL CNW merger? The UP and CGW connect end to end at Omaha, St. Joseph and Kansas City.
     
  20. Andrew Boyd Autistic, but Artistic

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    Feb 23, 2018
    Mostly bedcause the MoPac ITTL bought the CGW first for its link to the Twin Cities. A merger with NW would be a better way to reach Chicago, and would make the CGW's Chicago - Omaha line redundant.