The Entire Spartan Army at Themopylae

I got this idea after watching "The 300 Spartans" (the original & more historically accurate version from 1962). The reason there were only 300 Spartans at Thermopylae was because a religious festival was close and then the council decided to fortify the Isthmus of Corinth instead of Themopylae. The 300 at Thermopylae were King Leonidas's personal bodyguard.

What if there hadn't been a religious festival approaching or what if the Council had sent the rest of Sparta's army? Could the Persians have been turned completely back (like having Spartans defend the goat path)?

I'd like to hear possibilities other than not having the tale of the Last Stand of the 300 Spartans.
 
After reading Gates of Fire, the much, much more-accurate-than-the-movie book version, I was under the impression that it was pretty much a scratch force from the get-go.
 
I got this idea after watching "The 300 Spartans" (the original & more historically accurate version from 1962). The reason there were only 300 Spartans at Thermopylae was because a religious festival was close and then the council decided to fortify the Isthmus of Corinth instead of Themopylae. The 300 at Thermopylae were King Leonidas's personal bodyguard.

What if there hadn't been a religious festival approaching or what if the Council had sent the rest of Sparta's army? Could the Persians have been turned completely back (like having Spartans defend the goat path)?

I'd like to hear possibilities other than not having the tale of the Last Stand of the 300 Spartans.

Thespians.. why everybody forgets Thespians! :mad:

Not to mention the entire allied force which withdraw once the situation became untenable. Thermoplyae are not some magical crack in Armour of Hellas (TM).
 
And the helots. I mean, the spartans weren't going to carry their own armour all the way up to Thermopylae. And the Allied naval battle off the coast.
 
Most people think that its only 300 Spartans against 300,000 Persians, but there was a Greek fleet battling the Persian Navy at that time. Also there were 3,000 other greek soldiers assisting the Spartans.
 
The Spartans have a miraculous habit of having religious holidays or poor omens interfere with potentially costly military obligations. Suffice it to say, a POD that produces a full mobilization is likely to be large indeed, to say nothing of unlikely in the summer of 479 itself. Sending the entire army to oppose the Persian seemed a legitimately risky proposition before Thermopylae and more importantly before Salamis.

Nevertheless, I'll take the WI at face value and go from there. First question, just how many Spartans do we mean? While estimates for the number of Spartiates in 479 are iffy, I've heard as many as 8,000. That's probably a bit much to expect the Spartans to send (someone has to stay home). For simplicity sake, let's assume the Spartans send to Thermopylae the contingent they sent to Plataea. That's 5,000 Spartiates, 5,000 Perioikoi, and 35,000 helots. OTL there were also 12,000-13,000 other Greeks defending the pass before the Spartans made their last stand. At Plataea, there were as many as 60,000 additional Greek troops to complement the Spartan army. Now, certainly if the Spartans send substantial numbers of troops, more Greeks will come than came to the pass originally, but assuming the full contingent may be a bit much. We may get a better idea of a more plausible number if I could remember the number sent when they were thinking about making a stand in Thessaly (about where Heraclea Trochis was built), but that number wouldn't be "WI the Spartans sent everything they had."

Given the extreme confines of the pass at Thermopylae, a force of say 60-70,000 total Greeks could make quite a wall. Even if Herodotus' total number of Persians is accurate, the force at Thermopylae is only 250,000 to 300,000. Probably the number is much smaller, maybe twice the size of the Greek force. The problem is I'm not sure what the maximum number of troops that could fight at any one time would be.

Another problem is whether Xerxes continues to send troops against the Greeks if their numbers are so larger. They may have enough reserves to keep the pass blocked nearly indefinitely. This probably ensures he tries to find a way around, if he's insistant on breaking through (which I think he probably would be). But can he get enough troops around the mountain pass to rout the Greek force? This is the big question, in my mind, and heavily depends on the precise lay of the land. I'd guess that Xerxes might try it, but find himself surprised by the number of Greeks he finds. The Greeks discover that one can fight in a phalanx in a square and may do a fairly good job holding out, since the strength of a phalanx would be increased the more firmly packed and motivated the troops were. After this attack is repulsed, Xerxes probably withdraws.

But of course the story doesn't end there. The Battle of Artemesium probably drags on. The Greeks (particularly the Athenians) won't be dis-spirited and won't withdraw. Xerxes needs to force his way through and may be thinking about using his navy to land troops in Attica and force the Spartan lead force to withdraw. While the Greeks did prevail at Artemesium OTL, the Battle was much closer than Salamis and saw far higher Greek casualties, particularly among the Athenians (who were defending their homes for all intents and purposes). If the Greeks prevail at Artemesium, it may be at the expense of the Athenian navy, which may be decimated by the struggle. And even so, I'm not sure the Greeks win: Themistocles may not be dominant enough yet and the Athenians will not now the harbors as well as they did Salamis. Hence, the result is either to scuttle the power of Athens (which probably has a much larger degree of class conflict without the events preceeding Salamis and whose navy may not become the back-bone of Greek victory) or a Persian victory at sea, which would leave the Greeks very troubled. If things go largely as OTL, save for the events of Salamis, then the history of Athens itself will be far, far different.
 
I would argue that, quite the reverse, the presence of Sparta's Plataia contingent at Thermopylae could spell disaster for the Greeks because it might give them the confidence that they can win this thing. The battle OTL was a holding action and the Greeks knew as much. They withdrew once the purpose had been served anmd the pass became untenable, and the Spartans decision to make a final stand - when you get down to it - is nothing so much as a PR move.

If the Spartans and their Thespian allies believe they have a realistic chance of victory, they will hold out, possibly build a real field fortification and try to 'make Marathon'. The problem is that a) the Persians at this stage knew more about taking fixed positions than Greek generals and b) Thermopylae can still be circumvented. So instead of taking heavy casualties in a delaying action, the Persians end up completely destroying the Spartan contingent. They'll take marginally more casualties, but I don't think it will be that much given they'll take the enemy more seriously to start with.

I cannot see a Greek vistory at Plataia without the Spartan contingent in the battle line. Not to mention the psychological impact of the loss on the wavering allies.
 

67th Tigers

Banned
Just Thespians?

There were at least 10,000 Greeks on that field, possibly 15,000. The Spartans had 300 citizens, put a large contingent of slave troops (Helots) with them as well.

While the figures are suspect (the 10,000 Spartan hopolites at Palataea are suspect as there were only 3,000 Spartan citizens), ISTR the force at Thermopylae was one of the two main armies assembled to oppose the Persians (the second was based around the Athenians).
 
Just Thespians?

There were at least 10,000 Greeks on that field, possibly 15,000. The Spartans had 300 citizens, put a large contingent of slave troops (Helots) with them as well.

6-8.000 combat troops is usual estimate.

While the figures are suspect (the 10,000 Spartan hopolites at Palataea are suspect as there were only 3,000 Spartan citizens), ISTR the force at Thermopylae was one of the two main armies assembled to oppose the Persians (the second was based around the Athenians).

There were more spartiates then that at that time. 8.000 was about as high as Sparta ever went and was on the decline. But 3.000 may have been at the end, not 479
 
A number of states sent troops, most of them (except the Spartan and Thespians) pulled out after a couple of days, when it became apparent the Persians were surrounding them.
 

67th Tigers

Banned
6-8.000 combat troops is usual estimate.



There were more spartiates then that at that time. 8.000 was about as high as Sparta ever went and was on the decline. But 3.000 may have been at the end, not 479

300 was a final figure later on ISTR.

However, dragging up data from the depths of memory, there was a non-citizen class above the Helots wasn't there? They armed that class as Hopolites, and it started the destruction of the Spartan order ISTR.
 
Well, in the first part of the battle when they're fighting on that narrow pathway between the rocks and the sea, it wouldn't matter if the Spartans had a million guys there; the path was only about 10 people wide shoulder to shoulder so only the first few ranks would be fighting at any given time. Then during the 2nd part of the battle where the Persians found a second path around this pass the Greeks would have been completely surrounded, which is why they withdrew when that happened anyway.

I don't see it ending well for Sparta in any case, they either lose their entire army (worst case) when it gets encircled, withdraw most of it and be humiliated (bad), or they manage to plug the 2nd pass and just hold out until the Persians decide to just go home (No glory, no thought of Greek supremacy that terrifies the Persians for generations to come).
 
300 was a final figure later on ISTR.

However, dragging up data from the depths of memory, there was a non-citizen class above the Helots wasn't there? They armed that class as Hopolites, and it started the destruction of the Spartan order ISTR.

Yes, there is such a class, the perioikoi. The class itself didn't start the destruction so much as the eventual laws that gradually permitted the sale of the kleroi (plots of land granted by the state to citizens) whose proceeds supported Spartiates (the qualification was being able to contribute food to ones communal mess).
 
300 was a final figure later on ISTR.

However, dragging up data from the depths of memory, there was a non-citizen class above the Helots wasn't there? They armed that class as Hopolites, and it started the destruction of the Spartan order ISTR.

ISTR?

Periokoi didn't destroy spartan system, decline in numbers did

Well, in the first part of the battle when they're fighting on that narrow pathway between the rocks and the sea, it wouldn't matter if the Spartans had a million guys there; the path was only about 10 people wide shoulder to shoulder so only the first few ranks would be fighting at any given time. Then during the 2nd part of the battle where the Persians found a second path around this pass the Greeks would have been completely surrounded, which is why they withdrew when that happened anyway.

I don't see it ending well for Sparta in any case, they either lose their entire army (worst case) when it gets encircled, withdraw most of it and be humiliated (bad), or they manage to plug the 2nd pass and just hold out until the Persians decide to just go home (No glory, no thought of Greek supremacy that terrifies the Persians for generations to come).

More troops give you ability to rotate front ranks more often which means you always have fresh troops up front.

and with more spartans the path could be guarded by them, not second rate troops.
 
Didn't something like 2/3 of the initial Greek force go home on the 3rd day, leaving about 2000-2500? Of which 300 Spartans would be like an Armoured Division in a Corps.

How important was the naval skirmishing offshore of Thermopalye to Salamis, in terms of practice and confidence building, to the fledgling naval power of Athens?
 
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