The entire Burgundian Inheritance falls to Habsburg

Susano

Banned
After the death of Charles the Bold, his unwed daughter Mary was offered marriages by both Frnce and habsburg, which both coveted the Burgundian lands. Unwisely, Louis XI already began to occupy Burgundian lands, and Mary married the later HRE Maximilian I. After a short war, most of Mary's land were defanded, but some (like the Duchy of Burgundy itself) fell to the French crown.

So, is it any possible that Habsburg decisively wins and gains all those possessions? And if yes, what happens then?
 
After the death of Charles the Bold, his unwed daughter Mary was offered marriages by both Frnce and habsburg, which both coveted the Burgundian lands. Unwisely, Louis XI already began to occupy Burgundian lands, and Mary married the later HRE Maximilian I. After a short war, most of Mary's land were defanded, but some (like the Duchy of Burgundy itself) fell to the French crown.

So, is it any possible that Habsburg decisively wins and gains all those possessions? And if yes, what happens then?

Just been reading up about this for my TL. ;)

...I'd find it a bit unlikely; not totally impossible, but unlikely. IIRC, Louis got pretty much the whole bag; Charles VIII handed most of it back to secure German neutrality in his war with Ferdinand. Given that this is France against the HRE, I'd say it'd be hard for Maximilian to win the kind of massicvly decisive victory he'd need in order to hold on territories that close to France. France was punching way above its weight in the early 16th C, and Austria... uh... wasn't. :rolleyes:
 

Susano

Banned
Still, it IS the 15th century. France wasnt exactly the centralised state of the Sun King yet, either. Cant we have convinient quarrels with nobles, another civil war and/or more clashes with England? ;)
 
Still, it IS the 15th century. France wasnt exactly the centralised state of the Sun King yet, either. Cant we have convinient quarrels with nobles, another civil war and/or more clashes with England? ;)

a) Henry VII isn't going to touch that. He's got a treasury to fill, after all. ;) Hell, Louis bought them off when Richard tried to re-ally with the Burgundians; Henry sure as hell isn't going to jeopardize that for... um... not much of a guarenteed reward, really.
b) ...Maybe... but it'd take one mother-efsiga of a revolt to keep the French that far down. There's no one left to raise a real civil war at this point, and the crisis over Burgundy was always going to be started by the French anyways; the moment they have enough domestic peace, they're going after Burgundy, irregardless of whether Charles the Bold or Maximilian owns it.
 
What years are we talking. If this is in the 1490s, this could be an extension of the Italian Wars, with possible entrance into the war by Castile and Aragon on the side of the Habsburgs at some point, with the marriage of Phillip the Handsome and Juana the Mad.
 
What years are we talking. If this is in the 1490s, this could be an extension of the Italian Wars, with possible entrance into the war by Castile and Aragon on the side of the Habsburgs at some point, with the marriage of Phillip the Handsome and Juana the Mad.

Well, Charles died in 1477 and his daughter Mary died in 1482. At that point Maximilian lost her claims due to Salic law. So the POD would probably have to be before 1482.
 
The years we're talking about is 1477 to 1478-9 (I believe). Basically, immediately after Charles the Bold's death. If we allow Charles the Bold to live longer, then when Louis XI dies in 1483 (this will also require Mary of Burgundy not to fall off her horse in 1482) the "Mad War" over Charles VIII's regency begins. This civil war would take up the rest of the 1480's and would leave France unable to capitalize on Charles the Bold's death.

So there actually WAS a civil war that was being fought at that time. Just hold off Charles the Bold's death for a few years, and you've managed to get Burgundy past the clutches of the Spider King. This would also allow the Hapsburgs to be able to establish more power in the Burgundian inheritance. IOTL when Mary died in '82 the Dutch cities (with Louis' support) were able to rebel and get concessions out of Maximilian. With Charles the Bold's continued life, the loss of French Burgundy, and the rebellion of the Dutch cities, is probably betterflied away.

Despite the butterflies from Charles the Bold's living, the Hapsburg are still the logical choice for Mary's marriage, because they guarenteed the continued independence of Burgundy as its own separate political entity. I also don't think that giving Charles the Bold these few more years would mean that the "Kingdom of Beligica" or whatever, would come into existance. The Hapsburg HRE will not be granting Charles a crown, end of story.
 
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