The End of Ane Auld Sang

That'll never last. Before you can say "Despotismus gemueldert durch Schlamperei", you'll have hordes of Innkeepers called Andreas hurling rocks the size of houses down on the Bavarians as they take the only possible routes into Tyrolia. For some reason, the Tyroleans prefer their tyranny Austrian. (That's what happened OTL when Napoleon gave Tyrolia to Bavaria anyway).

Well maybe! But the Bavarians will have French troops backing them up as well. Probably best if you just assume that various regions in Europe will have some significant disorder before the peoples get used to their new masters. Austria may rise again anyway...
 
Any other maps for the other areas? I'm curious to see what North and South America would look like in TTL.

As requested, here is a world map in the year 1840:

Worldmap.JPG
 
Gees, the map's not bad. So la Nouvelle-France remains? That's interesting, which would mean that OTL Nova Scotia wouldn't exist.

You know, you're actually giving me some food for thought regarding a TL that I want to do once I'm done my China TL. This TL is great so far. Keep on updating it! I wonder how Scotland would react to the two World Wars.
 
Gees, the map's not bad. So la Nouvelle-France remains? That's interesting, which would mean that OTL Nova Scotia wouldn't exist.

You know, you're actually giving me some food for thought regarding a TL that I want to do once I'm done my China TL. This TL is great so far. Keep on updating it! I wonder how Scotland would react to the two World Wars.

Well there won't necessarily be two world wars, given the length of time in which things have butterflied! Of course, I'm assuming that technological progress and the development of philosophy and culture is similar to OTL if not exactly the same. Therefore I would expect there to be a Great War analogue, though depending what happens, there may not need to be a sequel...
I should add that I don't really know what happens in the TL. I haven't decided any of it yet. I do know that there is currently a 'long nineteenth century' and therefore no major wars until at least the 1900s. But apart from that nothing is decided.

New France does remain, although naturally it is more populated and developed, with levels not much less than in OTL, same goes for Louisiana. The French will have to face some separatist sentiment though.
 
From The African Adventure by Jean-Louis Comte de Ligny (modern translation) p.30

“We sighted land on the fourteenth of May – a smudge on the horizon, that grew as we sailed towards it, until we could see the shoreline clearly. The captain followed the coast to St Phillippe, and we spent most of that day staring over the port bow at the terrible landscape that awaited us. Jungles as dark as night, fearsome creatures and foul uncivilised savages with skins so black that in the dark of the forest all one could see was their teeth!

We reached St Phillippe on the following morning, and broke fast with the governor there. We were hardened travellers but I think we were all equally shocked by the conditions at the fort. The place was little better than a malarial swamp, and half the troops there were yellow with fever. The governor, a fat and slovenly fellow, declared we must be mad to venture so far into the wild interior, but in all honesty I was glad to quit the unhealthy humours of the coast and set out on our journey”.
 
From THE FRENCH PEACE 1805-1911 Part 1 (from World History Reader Volume 6: The Modern Age 1796-1996) p.115

“In 1849, Ligny and his party set out through the jungles of Central Africa on an expedition to cross the watershed and reach the Indian Ocean on foot. The continent they set out to traverse was still very much the ‘dark continent’ and while much of the Americas and Asia had been discovered and settled, subjugated by guns or by cartographers, Africa remained largely unexplored. By 1909, when the great explorer finally died in his Paris apartment, the continent had been parcelled out among the nations, explored, exploited and demystified. The ‘Scramble for Africa’ (so described by a Virginian newspaper) was actually finished by 1897, when the Somaliland territory was finally parcelled out.
 
I will follow that up with more detailed maps of each continent in a while - I hope to have maps for language and religions, and maps of population centres and suchlike, but all that will take a wee while. They will all, whne completed, mark the year 1911, which will be this TL's version of 1914, and after that the TL will move from strictly a TL into a more narrative based format...
 
OK, I need some suggestions. Based on the world map shown above, how should the empty spaces fill up going into the twentieth century?

I'll take this a region at a time.

First, Siberia - Russian expansion has been retarded by Ottoman and Swedish power, while the Chinese are still dealing with their own problems at mid-19th century. So who will expand to take the remaining spaces? Russia is finally rebuilding her power by the late 19th century, China has had the same problems as in OTL but not as much and later, Persia is pretty much as in OTL but without Russia as a barrier, the Ottomans are way stronger than in OTL having successfully reformed and built industry in mid-19th century but they have a limited area to expand in. Japan also has a stake in the area, having been opened up by France in around 1860 and having much the same experience as in OTL. So, based on that, who should take the area?

Next, NW America. France seems the obvious candidate, given that they control most of Eastern Canada and the Mississippi valley. Mexico also has interests in the area, and is more powerful than in OTL, but not by much. Other possible exploiters would be Japan, and China, and Russia (if she expands quickly as per the above scenario). So, who gets Alaska and BC?

Lastly, will Arabia be conquered? Oman has some stake there, but almost certainly it would be the Ottomans. Bu they didn't in OTL - any reason why?

Wars may occur as a result of these contests, so do suggest them if they seem logical.



Another question - how would America develop? The coastal states are independent nations with a POD of about the same as OTL (little earlier in fact) and France controls the hinterland, as shown on map. The French are inesting strongly in settlement and development, but would it develop the same way with the route of exploitation coming through the St Lawrence and Mississippi rather than Hudson, Delaware et al? Would the economic development be the same? How would population develop?

Hope someone can help with all that! You can reply to just one bit - it doesn't need to be all of it!
 
With regard to the settlment of French North America, it seems likely that some of the features in the modern Midwest would remain. Chicago is a natural, since it is the portage between the Great Lakes and the Mississippi (eventually). Joliet and Marquette both recognized that a canal should be built there (as several were), so I think Chicago would still be where it is.

Further north, St. Ignace seems likely to be more important than it is in OTL. It is at the northern tip of the lower peninsula of Michigan, where Lakes Superior, Michigan, and Ontario come together. This was an administrative center in OTL (and a pelt trading center), but would probably be more important if the French use the St. Lawrence and lakes for transportation, rather than building railroads straight west.

Detroit and Pittsburgh are also like to remain important, although Pittsburgh will surely have a different name (Duquene? or something), since they are at important junctions of water (the junction of Lakes Erie and Ontario, and the head of the Ohio river, respectively). St. Louis is likely to remain an important river city, although Cairo a little further south is at the confluence of the Ohio and Mississippi rivers. It could be bigger. Not sure about Cincinnati and Louisville, but presumably at least one of them would grow into an important Ohio river city. Montreal, Toronto, Cleveland, and Duluth are all also likely to be sites of major cities in this timeline.

Heading west it is much harder to settle along the rivers. They tend to flow in the wrong direction. Thus, a lot of western development depends on whether railroads are built and where. Also, policies toward the natives will be important west of the Mississippi.
 
With regard to the settlment of French North America, it seems likely that some of the features in the modern Midwest would remain. Chicago is a natural, since it is the portage between the Great Lakes and the Mississippi (eventually). Joliet and Marquette both recognized that a canal should be built there (as several were), so I think Chicago would still be where it is.

Further north, St. Ignace seems likely to be more important than it is in OTL. It is at the northern tip of the lower peninsula of Michigan, where Lakes Superior, Michigan, and Ontario come together. This was an administrative center in OTL (and a pelt trading center), but would probably be more important if the French use the St. Lawrence and lakes for transportation, rather than building railroads straight west.

Detroit and Pittsburgh are also like to remain important, although Pittsburgh will surely have a different name (Duquene? or something), since they are at important junctions of water (the junction of Lakes Erie and Ontario, and the head of the Ohio river, respectively). St. Louis is likely to remain an important river city, although Cairo a little further south is at the confluence of the Ohio and Mississippi rivers. It could be bigger. Not sure about Cincinnati and Louisville, but presumably at least one of them would grow into an important Ohio river city. Montreal, Toronto, Cleveland, and Duluth are all also likely to be sites of major cities in this timeline.

Heading west it is much harder to settle along the rivers. They tend to flow in the wrong direction. Thus, a lot of western development depends on whether railroads are built and where. Also, policies toward the natives will be important west of the Mississippi.

Thanks, that will be useful. As far as railroads go, I presume they would still appear, although maybe in the Mississippi and St Lawrence areas first, and then gradually in the independent states of the Eastern seaboard, depending on wealth and relations with France. Western expansion may not be quite as easy as in OTL, but I can't see it happening much slower.

About the independent states, would they be wealthy or poor? Powerful or weak? I am about to take this TL to the next level, of actual stories over a short period of time (no prizes for guessing what the major event will be). But I need to iron out some of the remaining details and any help with that will be appreciated!
 
As far as railroads go, I presume they would still appear, although maybe in the Mississippi and St Lawrence areas first, and then gradually in the independent states of the Eastern seaboard, depending on wealth and relations with France. Western expansion may not be quite as easy as in OTL, but I can't see it happening much slower.

About the independent states, would they be wealthy or poor? Powerful or weak? I am about to take this TL to the next level, of actual stories over a short period of time (no prizes for guessing what the major event will be). But I need to iron out some of the remaining details and any help with that will be appreciated!

With regard to the railroads, the link shows the train network in the United States in 1870 in OTL. http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/19-century/railroads-1870.jpg

Of course, how much of the network was financed by the wealth or expectation of wealth in the American Midwest and West? I don't know. As for Westward expansion, it seems to me to depend on who emigrates. The Germans, Italians, Slavs, and Irish who were the backbone of American westward expansion may not be available for French immigration.

It is hard for me to imagine that the independent countries on the eastern seaboard being very wealthy. New York, perhaps, but it seems to me that New England and the South probably need to explore consolidation.

As for French railroads in the west, it seems like it depends on how the French utilize the west. Will they be able to steal California, as in OTL? What about Mormons? Will there be Mormons?
 

Rockingham

Banned
If their are plans to continue......

Siberia- Expect partition. The era of railroads will end any hopes of a significant independant state not all ready stable and powerful...although you may see some buffer states, like OTL Mongolia and Afghanistan.

Japan doesnt have the population base to take anything west of lake Baykal, and thats pushing it......

Assuming no powerful khanate rises up in their way, Russian Siberia will be assured, as it slowly but surely spreads East.

North America-What is French population vis-a-vis US population OTL? And would they be prepared to allow Protestants from the west coast to settle in the western lands, or is their the same paranoia of Protestanst as OTL?

Arabia-The Ottomans had formal control of the interior, but they had no reason to want Arabia....oil wasn't an issue, and even if it was, Arabia outside the coast has very little. The coast is under direct Ottoman and Omani control.

Franco-Mexican, Sino-Japanese, Random Khanate-Russian. Sino-Russian, Russo-Japanese, possible Omani-Ottoman would all be likely wars. Oh, and of Turko-Russian.

OK, I need some suggestions. Based on the world map shown above, how should the empty spaces fill up going into the twentieth century?

I'll take this a region at a time.

First, Siberia - Russian expansion has been retarded by Ottoman and Swedish power, while the Chinese are still dealing with their own problems at mid-19th century. So who will expand to take the remaining spaces? Russia is finally rebuilding her power by the late 19th century, China has had the same problems as in OTL but not as much and later, Persia is pretty much as in OTL but without Russia as a barrier, the Ottomans are way stronger than in OTL having successfully reformed and built industry in mid-19th century but they have a limited area to expand in. Japan also has a stake in the area, having been opened up by France in around 1860 and having much the same experience as in OTL. So, based on that, who should take the area?

Next, NW America. France seems the obvious candidate, given that they control most of Eastern Canada and the Mississippi valley. Mexico also has interests in the area, and is more powerful than in OTL, but not by much. Other possible exploiters would be Japan, and China, and Russia (if she expands quickly as per the above scenario). So, who gets Alaska and BC?

Lastly, will Arabia be conquered? Oman has some stake there, but almost certainly it would be the Ottomans. Bu they didn't in OTL - any reason why?

Wars may occur as a result of these contests, so do suggest them if they seem logical.



Another question - how would America develop? The coastal states are independent nations with a POD of about the same as OTL (little earlier in fact) and France controls the hinterland, as shown on map. The French are inesting strongly in settlement and development, but would it develop the same way with the route of exploitation coming through the St Lawrence and Mississippi rather than Hudson, Delaware et al? Would the economic development be the same? How would population develop?

Hope someone can help with all that! You can reply to just one bit - it doesn't need to be all of it!
 
Not so much dead as in suspended animation. Like Ted Williams, this thread will one day be resurrected and will cast a swathe of destruction over the land.

For the moment though, I'm much too busy. Maybe in the summertime. Thanks for the interest though, and for the input, Edward Rackingham. I'll certainly use it, and any other input anyone wants to add, when I finally get back to this. I haven't forgotten it, believe me, and a re-launch will come eventually.
 
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