Ok I have noticed that none of my tls seem to interest people so I want to start a tl that you guys help create with suggestions and stuff. I want to start with a unified viking empire and reformed Germanic religion.
My recommendation is to do a lot of research on the Viking Age, its causes, read up on the early Viking raids and invasions of Britain and Ireland, the raids in France and establishment of Normandy, and the few historic Scandinavian kings we do know from the pre-Christianization age. Research the late Frankish Empire, the North Sea trade, the development of Kievan Rus', and the Islamic trade with the Silk Road, so that the events of the timeline can be inline with historical economic factors that existed at the time.Ok I have noticed that none of my tls seem to interest people so I want to start a tl that you guys help create with suggestions and stuff. I want to start with a unified viking empire and reformed Germanic religion.
I would have to disagree with this, Pagan religions have been reformed into organized state religions before. The Sassanians transformed an essentially polytheistic and fragmented form of Zoroastrianism that they inherited from the Arsacid era, into an organized state religion, codifying the beliefs into written form for the first time and integrating priests into the state bureaucracy.First off, there is no such thing as a "reformed" Germanic religion. Reformed paganisms only exist in video games.
This is very much true in a general sense, but I'd like to note that the Norse did engage in vast systems of trade and more regular/formalized tribute, in addition to raiding. They were the main connection between northwestern Europe and the Islamic trade networks. Archaeology has revealed massive numbers of Abbasid dinars in early medieval Sweden, for example.Viking-ism was very much a product of it's time, and soon it would be more profitable to peacefully trade than to loot and make everyone hate you.
Please explain as I'm not seeing this claim at all supported by the opening post/poster.The OP seems obsessed with preserving an ossified polytheism.
Please explain as I'm not seeing this claim at all supported by the opening post/poster.
Ah, so one can assume they were being deliberately rude rather than misunderstanding the OP?It probably stems from the OP's other threads. In one, Julian recreated/reorganised the Roman religion as a purely polytheistic one rather than the neoplatonic one of OTL. That was followed by a thread where Jesus abandoned Judaism for either a revived ANE or Greek polytheism. There have been several other threads about preserving and reforming Germanic polytheism.
Speaking of, is there any good Noth Sea empire TLs around?Honestly a later story, such as a Canute the Great/North Sea Empire
Honestly a later story, such as a Canute the Great/North Sea Empire or Harald Hardrada-focused timeline is a lot easier to handle than a pagan Viking one, because we just know so much more about the later end of the period, during and after Christianization when more records were available. Or for an early timeline, narrow it down to a smaller area, as @Aqua817 recommends, and focus deeply on that one area.
Vladimir the Great also conceived of reforming Slavic paganism in Kievan Rus', even building pagan temples in his first years of rule. Although he gave up on the plan and decided to convert to Christianity, the idea of turning a pagan religion into a state religion was something that, even in the midst of Christianity's expansion, was capable of being thought of in the early Middle Ages.
This is very much true in a general sense, but I'd like to note that the Norse did engage in vast systems of trade and more regular/formalized tribute, in addition to raiding. They were the main connection between northwestern Europe and the Islamic trade networks. Archaeology has revealed massive numbers of Abbasid dinars in early medieval Sweden, for example.
Expeditions of sacking, pillaging, loot and conquest weren't fully discredited until after the Thirty Years' War. Of course after the Viking Age these expeditions had to be rationalized as organized military endeavors. If we look to the Crusades and Wars of Religion though, there are plenty of brutal campaigns supported by plunder.
The issue is that ultimately, for one reason or another, "reformed" pagan religions end up usually being usurped by a more established and unified religion, OTL usually Christianity and Islam. While it can be argued that if Christianity and Islam are butterflied away it would be harder to do, by the time the Vikings were doing their thing (gonna assume a 793 start date), Christianity and Islam were well established. Really, the only major polytheistic pagan religion that reformed significantly enough to be considered a truly "reformed" paganism, and was able to fend off incursions by Islam, Christianity, and other strong centralized religions was Mongolian shamanism based around the cult of Genghis Khan, and even this had perennial problems with loosing people between Islam, Buddhism and Christianity. However it's isolation also helped it to hold on to it's ancient beliefs.I would have to disagree with this, Pagan religions have been reformed into organized state religions before. The Sassanians transformed an essentially polytheistic and fragmented form of Zoroastrianism that they inherited from the Arsacid era, into an organized state religion, codifying the beliefs into written form for the first time and integrating priests into the state bureaucracy.
Vladimir the Great also conceived of reforming Slavic paganism in Kievan Rus', even building pagan temples in his first years of rule. Although he gave up on the plan and decided to convert to Christianity, the idea of turning a pagan religion into a state religion was something that, even in the midst of Christianity's expansion, was capable of being thought of in the early Middle Ages.
This is very much true in a general sense, but I'd like to note that the Norse did engage in vast systems of trade and more regular/formalized tribute, in addition to raiding. They were the main connection between northwestern Europe and the Islamic trade networks. Archaeology has revealed massive numbers of Abbasid dinars in early medieval Sweden, for example.
Expeditions of sacking, pillaging, loot and conquest weren't fully discredited until after the Thirty Years' War. Of course after the Viking Age these expeditions had to be rationalized as organized military endeavors. If we look to the Crusades and Wars of Religion though, there are plenty of brutal campaigns supported by plunder
Now look it is not just me being polytheist biased or whatever, but if you want to see the effects of monotheism on the vikings look at after their conversion their culture fell apart. That was clearly a result of the new christian influences on their socitiesIt will be noted the Sassanians moved Zoroastrianism in the direction of monism with Zurvanism. The OP seems obsessed with preserving an ossified polytheism.
, but if you want to see the effects of monotheism on the vikings look at after their conversion their culture fell apart. That was clearly a result of the new christian influences on their socities
Also guys what do you think is the best way to reform Norse polytheism. I was thinking it would become more like modern Hinduism.
Can you provide some details?
Can you provide some details?
It is a load of shit. Viking 'culture', or rather early Medieval Scandinavian culture survived well under christianity. The viking raids ended because the easy targets dried up as France and England centralised into feudal states capable of dealing with such raids, not because any kind of 'meek' christian religion replaced 'warrior' paganism. Harald Sigurdsson Hårdråde was a christian, yet no-one doubts his viking culture. Sweden continued to do larger viking raids under royal approval to Finland and Ingria until 1240, when the defeat at Neva made it very clear that viking style fighting was inferior to heavy cavalry.
The basic tenents of Scandinavian society remained the same - free-holding peasants held most of the economical and political power since they owned land and were required to keep and train with arms, ruling themselves through the local things or moots, the thrones were elective. Sweden did not get an official nobility until 1280, more than 200 years after officially becoming christian - Norway never did get one, and the de facto nobility was eradicated as a social class during the black death.
The vikings were not a warrior society fueled by the desire to end up in Valhalla. Most medieval Scandinavians were self-owning peasants. Some of them went on viking raids since there were easy spoils to be had, or they were required by law by the King - since Scandinavian peasants provided military service through the Ledung rather than pay taxes.
Scandinavia slowly became more like the rest of Europe due to the rise of centralised royal power, power struggles between that power and the newly created nobility and the changes the black death wrought on society. It took centuries before the church amassed enough land to actually be an economical and political force in Scandinavia, and as a cultural force it was always quite weak. The Scandinavians retained a high level of local autonomy, a high level of rights for the commoners, military and economical power through land ownership as well as representation at the highest political level.
Swedish peasants briefly captured Stockholm in a rising as late as 1742.
The viking culture of local autonomy, local justice, strong commoner rights and strong economical and political influence of the lower classes lives on to this day.
Sheesh, people need to figure out that viking culture was a whole lot more than just going on raids.
i will provide further evidence if you want.
not because any kind of 'meek' christian religion replaced 'warrior' paganism.
It is a load of shit. Viking 'culture', or rather early Medieval Scandinavian culture survived well under christianity. The viking raids ended because the easy targets dried up as France and England centralised into feudal states capable of dealing with such raids, not because any kind of 'meek' christian religion replaced 'warrior' paganism. Harald Sigurdsson Hårdråde was a christian, yet no-one doubts his viking culture. Sweden continued to do larger viking raids under royal approval to Finland and Ingria until 1240, when the defeat at Neva made it very clear that viking style fighting was inferior to heavy cavalry.
The basic tenents of Scandinavian society remained the same - free-holding peasants held most of the economical and political power since they owned land and were required to keep and train with arms, ruling themselves through the local things or moots, the thrones were elective. Sweden did not get an official nobility until 1280, more than 200 years after officially becoming christian - Norway never did get one, and the de facto nobility was eradicated as a social class during the black death.
The vikings were not a warrior society fueled by the desire to end up in Valhalla. Most medieval Scandinavians were self-owning peasants. Some of them went on viking raids since there were easy spoils to be had, or they were required by law by the King - since Scandinavian peasants provided military service through the Ledung rather than pay taxes.
Scandinavia slowly became more like the rest of Europe due to the rise of centralised royal power, power struggles between that power and the newly created nobility and the changes the black death wrought on society. It took centuries before the church amassed enough land to actually be an economical and political force in Scandinavia, and as a cultural force it was always quite weak. The Scandinavians retained a high level of local autonomy, a high level of rights for the commoners, military and economical power through land ownership as well as representation at the highest political level.
Swedish peasants briefly captured Stockholm in a rising as late as 1742.
The viking culture of local autonomy, local justice, strong commoner rights and strong economical and political influence of the lower classes lives on to this day.
Sheesh, people need to figure out that viking culture was a whole lot more than just going on raids.