the Empire of the Borgia

so watched the Show "Borgia" which led me to read some back round on Pope Alexander VI and his Children Cesare and Lucrezia, so I came across the death of Pope Alexander VI and the election of Cardinal Piccolomini as Pope Pius III, a close ally of the Borgia Family, his election was strongly supported by Cesare Borgia, Pope Pius III however died after just 26 days as Pope and Cesare was forced to support Borgia enemy Cardinal della Rovere to become Pope Julius II, Julius swore that Cesare could keep his titles and lands, of course Julius lied and that was the end of the Borgia dream of craving a Principality out of the Papal Sates, but what if Pope Pius III hadn't died? what if rather than 26 days as pope he rules for 4 years? would Cesare control him? or would Pius turn on him? would a Borgia state in Italy ever work?
 
A Borgia state in Italy would certainly work - the people of Romagna, Cesare's would-be principality, supported him against their lords in the Borgia campaigns. He was seen as a liberator by the peasantry. I think Cesare could have easily controlled Pius' actions, as he had the monopoly of the force and the support of the French. I wouldn't be surprised if another Borgia Cardinal was elected in 1507, provided that della Rovere is killed by Micheletto.
 
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What I think

Well you have an interesting idea...Cesare was also a Cardinal so why not him as Pope starting something like the Hapsburg monopoly?
It seems Ok to me:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
 
Well you have an interesting idea...Cesare was also a Cardinal so why not him as Pope starting something like the Hapsburg monopoly?
It seems Ok to me:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

that'd make the Reformation interesting, so say Pope Alexander VI dies in 1507 at age 76, at age 31 can Cardinal Cesare become Pope at age 31? if so say he lives to his 70s (like both his parents) thats a 40 year Papacy, I'm guessing Martin Luther isn't very different... how would Pope Alexander VII deal with this?
 
that'd make the Reformation interesting, so say Pope Alexander VI dies in 1507 at age 76, at age 31 can Cardinal Cesare become Pope at age 31? if so say he lives to his 70s (like both his parents) thats a 40 year Papacy, I'm guessing Martin Luther isn't very different... how would Pope Alexander VII deal with this?

Knowing Cesare, not nicely. He'll use whatever means to co-opt, corrupt or crush elements of the Reformation. That being said, if Pope Cesare tries to use his Papal authority to try to rule over significant parts of Italy, and the Reformation manages to get off the ground, you may see his Italian enemies embracing the Reformation in some sense.
 
I know, what if Juan Borgia lives so that Cesare Borgia doesn't get to give up being a Cardinal?
Then there will be no Borgia state. Juan isn't capable of forging any state in any place, much less in Italy.

Unfortunately in this circumstance, one does not need to be a cardinal to be elected Pope. Anyone can be chosen.
*punching myself* Of course, I forgot this! However, I doubt he will be elected. He's too young and I'm not sure he would want to become Pope.

Also, the consequences in the work of Machiavelli will be notable. IOTL, he praised Cesare and Alexander VI, much more the father, but will he ITTL be influenced by the "Principality of Romagna"? I think he and Cesare were good buddies. So, he could have been hired by him when Machiavelli is banned from Florence. Interesting ramifications...
 
Also, the consequences in the work of Machiavelli will be notable. IOTL, he praised Cesare and Alexander VI, much more the father, but will he ITTL be influenced by the "Principality of Romagna"? I think he and Cesare were good buddies. So, he could have been hired by him when Machiavelli is banned from Florence. Interesting ramifications...

Machiavelli was never very fond of the Borgia, he was a believer in secular Swiss style republics which clashed with many merchant republics and the papacy alike. The Prince was written after the Medici had his arms broken in order to silence him, it was likely either satire or an attempt to look like he was towing the line.
 
Machiavelli was never very fond of the Borgia, he was a believer in secular Swiss style republics which clashed with many merchant republics and the papacy alike. The Prince was written after the Medici had his arms broken in order to silence him, it was likely either satire or an attempt to look like he was towing the line.
True, he was a Republican, but he admired Rodrigo and his Romagnan enemies (Caterina Sforza, "My Lady of Forli") and despised Louis XII. While he didn't like the Papal system, he used Rodrigo and Cesare as examples of good princes, but also criticized Cesare for being so dependent on his father, as we have seen in 1503.
 
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