The Empire of Germanicus - a Roman TL

Alright, time for my first Roman TL which will probably see a surviving Roman Empire. I used some OTL names and the Christian year count for simplicity (I hope no one is annoyed by this). I hope everybody likes it and that I didn't over do it.



The Empire of Germanicus


Chapter I: The Conquest of Germania, the Parthian War and the Reign of Germanicus, 9 AD – 60 AD.


It was in the aftermath of the rebellion in the province of Illyricum that commander in Germania Varus died of a case of pneumonia. Considering the performance of Germanicus Julius Caesar – the adoptive son and heir of Augustus’s heir Tiberius – in crushing the Illyrian rebellion (caused by the harshness of Roman tax collectors), Augustus made him the new commander in the border provinces of Germania in 9 AD. While in summer camp on the Weser, Germanicus heard of a planned rebellion instigated by Arminius who had rallied a number of Germanic tribes that were traditionally anti-Roman. The young, ambitious Germanicus aimed to curry favour with Augustus and wanted to crush the uprising and conquer Germania. Segestes, who was the father of Arminius’s wife and opponent of their marriage, warned Germanicus and suggested him to arrest the tribe leaders. Germanicus heeded the advice and arrested a number of leaders (although Arminius escaped) while sending out scouts and skirmishers to the Teutoburg forest where the Germans were waiting in an ambush, but now with a decapitated leadership. Germanicus quickly received confirmation of the ambush and decided to spring a trap for Arminius instead, using all available troops which were three legions, three cavalry units (alae) and six cohorts of auxiliary forces. Germanicus’s troops surrounded the forest the Germans were in, unsuspecting of what had happened at this moment. He burnt down the forest and the tribes spread out in panic without a coordinated leadership and their troops were picked off by Germanicus’s legions who left few survivors. Arminius himself was taken prisoner and taken back to Rome where he was displayed in a victory parade, to the amusement of the Romans and his own humiliation which induced him to commit suicide in his cell. The Germanic tribes were scattered in this battle.

Germanicus continued battling in a victory streak and pursued the chaotically retreating Germans who were now also leaderless and fighting among each other in an internal power struggle. Several aspiring tribe leaders sought support from the Romans which allowed Germanicus to play them apart in a “divide and conquer” strategy like Caesar had done before him in Gaul. In a year of intense campaigning, Germanicus uprooted and defeated the last vestiges of resistance in the territory between the Weser and Elbe rivers, but also showed himself lenient to the defeated tribes in an effort to win their hearts and minds. By the autumn of 10 AD, the land between the Weser and the Elbe was conquered with only a few very small restive regions remaining to be subdued. Germanicus stood triumphant and added the territory up to the river Elbe to the Empire as the province of Germania Magna.

He further campaigned in Raetia, Noricum and Pannonia with the assent of Emperor Augustus and consolidated the Roman Empire’s power there. He quickly built a glorious career for himself and had an enormous reputation by the time he returned from his campaign in Cappadocia and Commagene which were Roman provinces by 12 AD. It was further enhanced by his victory in Dacia which added another two provinces to the empire: Dacia and Sarmatia Minor on the Danube and the Carpathians respectively, bringing the border to the Dniester. It was around this time that his adoptive father predeceased him in a riding accident which automatically made Germanicus the heir apparent to Augustus’s throne. He certainly already had a reputation big enough to fit with the imperial purple, having enlarged the empire with four new provinces. The provinces were consolidated with rebellions easily being subdued by brute force or Germanicus’s latent diplomatic talent. Germanicus was also interested in technology mainly in Vitruvius’s work on the aeolipile with which he came into contact upon his return in Rome. It was a primitive steam turbine which could be used to open and close doors. It was the first primitive steam engine although it would take metallurgy centuries to advance to the levels needed for a useable model for large scale use. In the meantime, Germanicus employed some in his house. His conquest of Germania also stimulated an invention. The soil of Germania Magna was very heavy and moist and couldn’t be cultivated with normal ploughs. It inspired settlers to use the heavy plough which was introduced after a Chinese invention like it arrived in the empire through trade via Parthia.

Thanks to his merits, it was no surprise that Germanicus succeeded Augustus upon the latter’s death in 14 AD as Germanicus Julius Caesar Augustus, the new Caesar at the age of 30. Despite his reputation as a warlord, the beginning of his reign started with peace and he quickly made himself popular by announcing one hundred days of games in honour of his predecessor and also by organizing bread handouts to the impoverished proletariat of Rome. At the same time, he maintained Augustus’s harmonious relationship with the Senate. He usually convened with them regularly and conferred with them on important issues although he de facto had the strongest influence and the support of the legions as well as the praetorian guard after he had given them a five percent rise in salary. Due to his mannerisms and attitudes towards the common soldier, he was already popular and his position was boosted. He gained lasting popularity among the proletariat by handing out plots of land in the newly added provinces of Germania Magna and Cappadocia which needed to be Romanized and integrated into the empire. The good start of his reign was disturbed as the Parthian Empire on the eastern frontier was rumbling again under not very pro-Roman ruler Artabanus II who was bent on taking puppet Armenia from the Romans and secure his north-western frontier for conquests further into Roman Asia. Germanicus’s successes bothered him and he wanted to nip future Roman threats in the bud. He therefore invaded Armenia in spring of 20 AD. He wanted to establish it as a buffer state and defeated the troops of the local puppet ruler, enraging Germanicus.

Germanicus mustered a large force, including a lot of (archery)cavalry which he had spent training to counter a possible Parthian threat. Six Roman legions, four Roman cavalry units (alae) and ten cohorts of auxiliary forces entered Armenia and encountered Parthian forces under Artabanus II himself near Tigranocerta in June. Germanicus employed a tactic very similar to the one Hannibal at used at Cannae: a double envelopment. The battle took place in a valley which prevented the Parthian force from surrounding the Romans, forcing the Parthians to attack frontally. They attacked the Roman centre – which seemed weak and mainly consisted of cavalry – head-on with their own cavalry upon which Germanicus ordered his infantry to conduct a fighting retreat. At the same time, his left and right wings, which were mainly cavalry, snapped shut around the Parthian force. At the same time auxiliary forces came in to bolster the centre of the Roman army. The Parthians were surrounded and the Roman army massacred them in the Battle of Tigranocerta which earned Germanicus another honorary title: Parthicus. He followed upon his success by invading Mesopotamia while the Parthian Empire was left leaderless with Artabanus being dragged all the way to Rome for a victory parade after which he would rot in prison for another decade or so, causing a power vacuum in Parthia which led to an internal power struggle.

Germanicus’s campaign in Mesopotamia continued until 26 AD and he inflicted several more devastating defeats, besieging more cities, fighting a number of battles and was honoured as the new Alexander the Great. He continued from Tigranocerta to the ruins of Nineveh where he established a new city called Germanicia where he set up camp. The regional governor, one of the usurpers of the Parthian throne, attacked the Roman camp with 10.000 men and was repelled successfully despite the element of surprise. In early 21 AD, after setting up a number of encampments to consolidate, Germanicus moved on to Assur, the traditional Assyrian capital. After a few more years, the successor of Artabanus II who had styled himself Artabanus III, requested peace from Rome as his empire was crippled by Germanicus’s victories. Armenia, Assyria and Mesopotamia were annexed as Roman provinces, moving the border to the Zagros mountains, which formed a much better and formidably defendable border, and to the Black Sea which brought the Romans in contact with Central Asia and the embryonic Kushan Empire which had grown to include all of Bactria. The Kushan Empire was quick to establish trade and diplomatic relations with Rome which provided it with money to raise armies and expand east and south. Around the same time, exiled pro-Roman former Parthian ruler Vonones I was re-established as a puppet ruler over a rump-Parthian satellite state with his capital in Ecbatana. The small kingdom of Colchis and the Bosporus Kingdom on the Crimean Peninsula were made client states to Rome.

Germanicus was honoured more than ever after this victory which had decisively weakened the empire’s strongest enemy, Parthia. Mesopotamia, with its highly productive agriculture and control of trade routes, was important and a centre for the Persian Empire and all its incarnations like the Parthian Empire. The rump-state that was left wasn’t able to challenge Rome anymore due to the loss of its economic, agricultural and demographic heartland. It was a boon for the Romans who had now added a centre of agriculture and trade to their realm and through the Persian Gulf they now had contact with the distant Indian and Chinese states who were classified as high standing cultures. Trade relations developed by sea and some diplomatic contacts were made although these powers generally ignored each other due to lack of interest, except for the aforementioned Kushan Empire which used Greek and Persian mercenaries to expand into the Hindu Kush. They henceforth functioned as the intermediary between Rome and the Chinese Empire under the renewed Han Dynasty and traded with both of made them, making them a powerful for a state of their size.

A Rome now freed of any serious threats entered a new period of stability with Germanicus being venerated, allowing him to consolidate his power further. It was a period of peace which would go uninterrupted for another ten years or so. Several Roman officials were awarded with lands in the east and were made responsible for organizing the new conquests, thus ensuring the support of a large part of the Senate. Germanicus also established a succession law which Augustus hadn’t done during his life time. Henceforth, every Caesar was obliged to appoint a successor at the very start of his reign and announce it to the Imperial Senate. His generals would expand the empire further to the Vistula River and the Carpathian Mountains during his long reign, a conquest stimulated by increasing agricultural activities in the northern regions due to the introduction of the heavy plough. Germania would see a large population increase in the second half of the first century AD because agricultural production would grow with the introduction of the heavy plough. Germania was growing toward self-sufficiency (which would make it less of a drain) and contributed to international trade with grain, timber, amber, iron ore and fur. Germania’s economic growth starting in the 40s and 50s also stimulated economic growth in northern Gaul and the province of Belgica as Germania traded with them. Trading around the entire North Sea and Baltic region expanded too, making it another economic hub (although the Mediterranean remained the heart of the empire). Ports arose in Germania as naval travel increased while the road network was expanded too. Much like Gaul, Germania was Romanized with Roman cities being established there. Very soon tribe leaders assumed Roman habits to fit in with the new elites and curry favour in Rome. Roman wealth through trade spread into Germania Magna which now reached up to the Vistula. By the end of the first century AD, Germania would be Romanized. This process went speedy due to a cultural mixing as Roman settlers arrived and due to the economic boom which encouraged Germanic leaders to make use of Roman trade routes to the Middle East, using the Dniester to get to the Black Sea and land routes in Anatolia. In 39 AD, a short break in the peaceful period was made when Germanicus subdued Britannia, making it another province by 42 AD although he didn’t follow up on his success and so Caledonia and Hibernia were left alone for now.

Germanicus died a peaceful death of old age in 60 AD at the age of 76 years. He died after a glorious reign of 46 years which had seen a lot of expansion for the empire and improvement for the people of Rome. Germanicus was succeeded by his grandson (his son had predeceased him due to his longevity) Nero Julius Caesar Augustus Germanicus Parthicus who would continue to rule a stable Roman Empire which was one of the mightiest states in existence already.
 
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Not trying to be a douche, but this seems to be a big Romano-Germanico gang wank. My problems:

1. 20 legions??????!!! that would leave only 7-8 to defend the rest of the empire.

2. Parthia being reduced to a rump state because of a few battles, seems unlikely.

3. You should increase the amount of time it takes to subdue Britannia and the new regions, I don't think anyone would be happy with being assimilated into a completely foreign culture.

4. Communications in the Roman empire were mainly sea based, how are you going to get a boat all the way from the north sea to rome in time for it to make a difference.

Other that that I like it (I was thinking of a Germanicus timeline myself, seems you beat me to the punch.)

Oh and for the trade going on in Germania, you should include amber.
 

Rubicon

Banned
You killed of Clau-Clau-Claudius without even saying his name! You bastard!

In other related areas: Me like :D
 
Btw, I'd like to do a map request. OTL Roman Empire+Mesopotamia and Armenia with a border on the Zagros Mountains and the Black Sea+a Vistula-Dniester border+Colchis and the Crimean kingdoms as puppets. I hope someone would do that for me :).
 

Eurofed

Banned
Btw, I'd like to do a map request. OTL Roman Empire+Mesopotamia and Armenia with a border on the Zagros Mountains and the Black Sea+a Vistula-Dniester border+Colchis and the Crimean kingdoms as puppets. I hope someone would do that for me :).

Given that this is one of my preferred scenarioes, I have likely something handy available. :D
 

Eurofed

Banned
This should be adequate for your purposes.

EDIT: changed as per the author's request and again to make Roman puppets UCS compliant.

fc5us5.png
 
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Almost perfect, except for Britannia. Caledonia, Hibernia and Cimbria (Denmark) which won't be conquered until the next chapter ;). Could you edit that?

EDIT: Oh and Colchis and the Bosporus are mere puppets (as is Parthia)
 

Eurofed

Banned
Almost perfect, except for Britannia. Caledonia, Hibernia and Cimbria (Denmark) which won't be conquered until the next chapter ;). Could you edit that?

No problemo. ;)

EDIT: Oh and Colchis and the Bosporus are mere puppets (as is Parthia)

Done as well, although I generally use the UCS canon of marking puppets with the overlord color's contour. If nothing else because I'm unable to create lighter shades in a reliable way. :eek:
 
Update time for all my avid readers out there.:D




Chapter II: Consolidation, Security and Bloom, 60 AD – 180 AD.​


Nero was still young at the time of his ascension, only 22 years old, but he would prove to be a chip off the old block in terms of ruling. He consolidated the power of the Roman Empire in the new provinces, establishing a strong system of government there as well as powerful garrisons. A large number of new fortresses were built in the Zagros mountains, making many of its passes virtually impregnable for any hostile force. Nero also oversaw the reconstruction of the Parthian road network and the expansion of it to link the major cities. He visited the province personally, travelling to places like Babylon and Susa, and resided in the provincial capital of Germanicia for over three months before returning day to day affairs to the governor and leaving. His troops were quick to repair the remaining damages caused by the war and Nero’s lenience won the hearts and minds of the people. As usual, the old administration remained in place although it was now subservient to the local governor. Traditions and other cultural and religious elements were left untouched and Nero even contributed funds for the grand reconstruction of a Zoroastrian temple complex, and made a sacrifice of one hundred bulls upon its completion which led to him quickly growing in popularity and the populace accepting Roman rule. He also initiated the construction of the Imperial Road which stretched from Lutetia Parisorium in Gaul to Rome and back up the Italian boot into the Balkans, through Byzantium and then on to Babylon with offshoots to Hispania, Germania, Dacia and Greece. It would take twenty years to construct, but would greatly improve trade, transport and communications within the Empire. In Rome, he continued a largely harmonious relation with the Senate by respecting their privileges and status, treating them seemingly as equals even though he was first among the equals. Nero also made work of playing off the two main factions in the Imperial Senate, the patrician nobility and the popular party which supported on the masses of impoverished Romans who vastly outnumbered the patricians. The two feuded and also had internal conflict in which Nero usually appeared as a mediator although in fact he stimulated the conflicts in the first place to strengthen his own position. After the conflict escalated, he appeared with a “compromise solution” which was an amalgamation of the standpoints he had gathered from both parties.

It was in this way that he managed to introduce new legislation fairly easily. Nero was known to be very open-minded, progressive, forward-thinking and suspected of supporting the popular party. He therefore introduced laws that were popular with the populace of Rome, realizing that they had real power. From now on, it was impossible for debtors to get stuck in slavery in order to pay back their loans. Also, no one could sell himself or his children into slavery which was now punishable by law, sometimes severely. It was now also forbidden to treat slaves cruelly and it was made possible for slaves to challenge their masters in court if they were mistreated by them. Lastly, a law was introduced which said that if a sick slave was abandoned by his master and then recovered, he would be a free person (although not a citizen of Rome). In this way, Nero prevented any possible repeats of the Servile Wars of the previous century and made himself popular among the proletariat of Rome which he also kept quiet with “bread and circuses” by organizing games and bread handouts on a regular basis. In the meantime, the aristocracy was sweet talked by tax benefits and large estates in the most recently added provinces which led to the situation that new expansion would be needed in the future. Although he was immensely popular in Rome, it didn’t mean he was universally liked and is considered a controversial figure among Christians and Jews up until this day.

Christianity originated from the provinces of Judea and Galilee and had started out as just another Jewish sect. It had, however, attracted a number of followers because of the message it preached of compassion, love, pacifism and the eventual salvation of God which would bring the good into paradise while the wicked and evil would be damned for eternity. As much as Judaism and Christianity differed, they shared the crime of refusing to worship the Emperors as gods and sacrifice to them, thereby exposing themselves to frequent persecution by the Romans. In 66 AD, six years after the start of Nero’s reign, a large scale Jewish uprising occurred, forcing Nero to send four legions to crush it. The uprising was brutally stamped down on with Jerusalem and other cities being sacked and burnt down, many being killed and many women, regardless of their allegiance, being raped. Thousands were deported to Rome as slaves. The leadership of the uprising was executed and a new wave of persecution was unleashed which also involved the Christians. In the massive, new Amphitheatrum Julium or Colosseum which would seat 60.000 Romans, massive spectacles were organized in which stubborn Jews and Christians were thrown to the lions or tigers, or more rarely other predators like hyenas, crocodiles and so on. This was usually before the real gladiator match. Thousands of Christians and Jews would die this way over the years, colouring the sands of the Colosseum red with blood. Nero was awarded for it with a triumphal arch commemorating his victory over the rebels.

He was also active in the field of conquest, albeit not on the scale of his grandfather. Settlements and farms in northern Germania Magna were being terrorized by barbarian raids from the peninsula north of the province to which the Romans responded by conquering the area and forming the province of Cimbria in 79 AD, thus securing the northern border of Rome. Nero himself consolidated rule over Britannia, defeating the last rebellious tribes there, and he also expanded north, invading Caledonia to conquer the barbarian tribes there which would secure another border from any land attack. The Picts, the indigenous population, frustrated him initially with their hit-and-run attacks, but he defeated them by use of scorched earth tactics which deprived them of food and supplies. Caledonia was made another province and the island to the west known as Hibernia was too after Nero had played out the various small kingdoms there against each other, allowing him to take them one by one with ease. All in all, the campaign lasted for eighteen months from 84 to 85 AD which earned Nero another title: Britannicus.

The remainder of his reign would remain peaceful and he passed away tragically of food poisoning in 103 AD at the age of 65 and after a rule of 43 years. His son Gaius had been appointed his successor upon birth after Nero’s adopted heir had died in battle in another Jewish rebellion. He was crowned Gaius Julius Caesar Augustus Britannicus Germanicus Parthicus that same year and was now the ruler of one of the largest empires in the world. It was an empire that was prosperous, stable and unchallenged and he ruled it at the age of 35, a relatively young age just like all his predecessors. Unlike his predecessors, he was not a great reformer, military leader or builder. Instead, he implemented a laissez-faire policy in most cases and was not as renowned as previous leaders although he was very effectual during his reign and is known for his writings on politics, philosophy, mathematics and biology. A contemporary described him as being “neither good nor bad” although this understates the stability of his long reign, especially when counting the personal tragedy of him losing two sons in a storm at sea, and his stormy divorce and remarriage.

One good thing he did do was to establish a tolerance policy aimed at Jews and Christians in order to prevent future rebellions against Roman rule. Christianity was the dominant religion in the Levant anyway by now and was aiming to expand into Mesopotamia although it met with fierce resistance from Zoroastrianism. In the third and fourth centuries it would expand into Mesopotamia and Arabia, making it the dominant Middle Eastern religion although 5-10% of the population would continue to follow Zoroastrianism instead. Zoroastrianism remained dominant in Parthia although it experienced stiff competition from renewed Buddhist proselytizing efforts as well. These were initially put down although Buddhists would constitute 15-20% of the Parthian population by the mid third century by which time it was an “allowed religion”. Even Rome itself had a 2-3% large Buddhist minority by then.

The Roman Empire in the second century was a melting pot of cultures with many religions anyway: traditional Roman religion, the Mithras cult, the Osiris and Isis cults, nature worshipping, Zoroastrianism, the Germanic religions, Judaism, Christianity and Buddhism. Some were of course tainted with Roman influences. For example, culture in Gaul was heavily Romanized with Latin and Gallo-Latin having become the main languages of administration and conversation, driving the original language close to extinction, while temples in Gaul received more and more Roman features. More than 150 years of Roman rule had led to gradual increase of Roman influence with trade expanding, cities growing, high standards of living, Roman rule being accepted and even collaborated with, and the stability and security under Roman protection since a legion was never far away. By now, Gaul and Germania had been under the rule of the empire for over a century and were completely Romanized. Mesopotamia had seen over 80 years of Roman rule at the time of Gaius’s ascension to the throne and had experienced strong Roman and Hellenic influence too, thus strengthening the eastern frontier.

Emperor Gaius eventually died after more than five decade reign in 155 AD at the exceptional age of 87 years, making him the fourth Emperor in a row with a long, stable and prosperous reign. Of the Four Good Emperors, he would be the last as he was succeeded by his infant grandson Marcus who was only five years old at the time. He was overshadowed by his ambitious mother who controlled the empire through him. Even after she passed away when he was fifteen, he proved to be ineffectual. He was easily influenced, sickly, uninterested, not exceptionally intelligent or politically gifted and easily intimidated, not like his glorious predecessors. After 25 years of serving as a puppet Emperor, played by the various factions, he was ousted in 180 AD. Usurper of the imperial purple and general, Lucius Marcus Severus, proclaimed himself Emperor with the support of his legions in north Africa. He landed in southern Italy, taking Rome and overthrowing the de jure Emperor. This provoked a civil war as more claimants to the throne emerged to challenge Lucius’s claim, thus precipitating the Third Century Crisis and providing the Julian Dynasty with an unbefitting demise.
 
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Killing Arminius would not leave the Germanic tribes "leaderless" as every tribe was seperate from eachother, and even though they worked together at the Teutoburg forest, they still were completely seperate. Each tribe also governed itself and had their own, rather large militaries, but I'm sure you know this already.

Divide and conquer wouldn't work either as the Germanics had the mentality of "you might be Frisian and I might be Marcomani, but they are Roman, and they are foreigners" and have been living in co-existence with eachother for a century, they wouldn't suddenly start attacking one another en masse just because the Romans arrived.

Also there would be no "internal power struggle" for aforementioned reasons. And there wouldn't be such thing as a small resistance either, there would be several million angry men, woman and children doing everything that they could to stop the Roman invaders.

The fact that Germania was mainly made up of forests and swamps as well as the fact that the Germanics were argueably amongst the best warriors of the time wouldn't help the Romans much either.

The Germanic (warriors) also heavily outnumbered the Roman soldiers and know their terrain much better, and in the case of some tribes that emphasized on military prowess (see Batavians), the individual soldier was far, far better than the average Roman one. Also, the Germanics would be fighting for their lifes and their families, and again doing anything within their power to stop the Romans.

Sorry for doodling all my thoughts up in this weird-short-paragraphy way, but there is simply no way that Rome can conquer Germania in the way that you described it, that is just simply the ancient Operation Sealion, bloody impossible. :p
 
Killing Arminius would not leave the Germanic tribes "leaderless" as every tribe was seperate from eachother, and even though they worked together at the Teutoburg forest, they still were completely seperate. Each tribe also governed itself and had their own, rather large militaries, but I'm sure you know this already.

Divide and conquer wouldn't work either as the Germanics had the mentality of "you might be Frisian and I might be Marcomani, but they are Roman, and they are foreigners" and have been living in co-existence with eachother for a century, they wouldn't suddenly start attacking one another en masse just because the Romans arrived.

Also there would be no "internal power struggle" for aforementioned reasons. And there wouldn't be such thing as a small resistance either, there would be several million angry men, woman and children doing everything that they could to stop the Roman invaders.

The fact that Germania was mainly made up of forests and swamps as well as the fact that the Germanics were argueably amongst the best warriors of the time wouldn't help the Romans much either.

The Germanic (warriors) also heavily outnumbered the Roman soldiers and know their terrain much better, and in the case of some tribes that emphasized on military prowess (see Batavians), the individual soldier was far, far better than the average Roman one. Also, the Germanics would be fighting for their lifes and their families, and again doing anything within their power to stop the Romans.

Sorry for doodling all my thoughts up in this weird-short-paragraphy way, but there is simply no way that Rome can conquer Germania in the way that you described it, that is just simply the ancient Operation Sealion, bloody impossible. :p

I think you're seriously overestimating the Germanics to the point of wankage. This is a rather romantic image of Germanics as brave, courageous and noble pagan warriors which stems from the nineteenth century. Your 'great warriors' were no match for the Huns even though Germania isn't exactly cavalry land. If Rome had felt the need or desire to conquer Germania, they would have IMO. The Romans would have taken the Huns down if they had arrived say in the 2nd century rather than the fifth when it was already disintegrating. Even then, Aetius managed to woop their butt on occassion. Also, the Battle of the Teutoburg forest was rather decisive with a lot of the tribes military force being used there. The Germanic tribes fielded some 12.000 men which would have been a heavy loss. Rome only had 30 legions or so back then which equals something like 150.000 men. IOTL the Romanis lost 20.000 men (a near 15% chunk of their military strength) and they had more manpower; even Augustus experienced the loss as a blow and he had fought a lot, losing many men. I'm sure that a loss of 10-12.000 men would be even worse for the tribes who have a smaller population and are a lot less centralized. With the leadership arrested and Arminius gone, the tribes are no longer unified. There might be 'millions' of them (2-5 million I guess), but there are many more Romans and the Empire as a much higher level of organization and more resources to throw at it. Moreover, Rome has already faced opponents which are tougher in my opinion like Carthage and the Parthians and came out victorious or at least with its territory preserved.

Btw, Arminius wasn't the only one killed. If you read carefully, most of the leadership of the Germanic tribes was arrested before the battle which does leave them largely leaderless. This would precipitate a power struggle as the few remaining tribal chiefs will vie for Arminius's position while the other tribes don't have a leader and need a new one (presumably by a power struggle). I also don't believe resistance would be as fierce as described after some time. Resistance died down wherever the Romans went, otherwise provinces like Belgica and Britannia (which were equally distant from the Meditteranean) would have broken off quickly. Also, this isn't the age of nationalism yet so the tribes don't have that much of a national identity, more of a local one. Once the benefits of Roman rule become evident, you'll see similar developments as those in OTL Gaul.

Personally, I don't really believe in the "peaceful co-existence of over a century between the tribes". Sure, they could put their differences aside if need be, but they weren't friends. As in any region where tribes share the place, there are bound to be tribal wars. The Germanic tribes left no records and the Romans wrote preciously little about them, but it's reasonable to assume there were frequent tribal wars. That his tribal alliance was only pragmatic is shown by the fact that Arminius only held his tribal federation together for around another decade before renewed conflict erupted, leading to his assassination in 21 AD.
 
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I think you're seriously overestimating the Germanics to the point of wankage. This is a rather romantic image of Germanics as brave, courageous and noble pagan warriors which stems from the nineteenth century. Your 'great warriors' were no match for the Huns even though Germania isn't exactly cavalry land. If Rome had felt the need or desire to conquer Germania, they would have IMO. The Romans would have taken the Huns down if they had arrived say in the 2nd century rather than the fifth when it was already disintegrating. Even then, Aetius managed to woop their butt on occassion. Also, the Battle of the Teutoburg forest was rather decisive with a lot of the tribes military force being used there. The Germanic tribes fielded some 12.000 men which would have been a heavy loss. Rome only had 30 legions or so back then which equals something like 150.000 men. IOTL the Romanis lost 20.000 men (a near 15% chunk of their military strength) and they had more manpower; even Augustus experienced the loss as a blow and he had fought a lot, losing many men. I'm sure that a loss of 10-12.000 men would be even worse for the tribes who have a smaller population and are a lot less centralized. With the leadership arrested and Arminius gone, the tribes are no longer unified. There might be 'millions' of them (2-5 million I guess), but there are many more Romans and the Empire as a much higher level of organization and more resources to throw at it. Moreover, Rome has already faced opponents which are tougher in my opinion like Carthage and the Parthians and came out victorious or at least with its territory preserved.

Btw, Arminius wasn't the only one killed. If you read carefully, most of the leadership of the Germanic tribes was arrested before the battle which does leave them largely leaderless. This would precipitate a power struggle as the few remaining tribal chiefs will vie for Arminius's position while the other tribes don't have a leader and need a new one (presumably by a power struggle). I also don't believe resistance would be as fierce as described after some time. Resistance died down wherever the Romans went, otherwise provinces like Belgica and Britannia (which were equally distant from the Meditteranean) would have broken off quickly. Also, this isn't the age of nationalism yet so the tribes don't have that much of a national identity, more of a local one. Once the benefits of Roman rule become evident, you'll see similar developments as those in OTL Gaul.

Personally, I don't really believe in the "peaceful co-existence of over a century between the tribes". Sure, they could put their differences aside if need be, but they weren't friends. As in any region where tribes share the place, there are bound to be tribal wars. The Germanic tribes left no records and the Romans wrote preciously little about them, but it's reasonable to assume there were frequent tribal wars. That his tribal alliance was only pragmatic is shown by the fact that Arminius only held his tribal federation together for around another decade before renewed conflict erupted, leading to his assassination in 21 AD.

I'm not seriously overestimating the Germanic tribes, I just hate when people say that they were just degenerate barbarians running around Germania who luckily resisted the Romans at the Teutoburg Wald. And eventhough they might have gotten beaten by the Huns, they still beat the Romans, time after time.

-the Cimbrian War
-the Batavian Rebellion
-the Battle of the Teutoburg Wald
-the massive eastern Germanic immigrations that basically overan the Empire.

now show me a war where the Romans "destroyed" the Germanics? Yep, that's right, there are none, atleast none that I could find.

And I believe that the Germanics would of fought to the death, take two of the aforementioned examples. After victory after victory the Teutonic and Cimbrian men were finally outnumbered and defeated, the woman and children then commited mass-suicide, that alone just shows you that the Romans were not exactly popular with the Tribes. When the Batavians were outnumbered by the Romans and demanded to surrender, they were willing to fight to the death just to protect their freedom, the only thing that stopped them was their leader who told them that wasting their lifes on the Romans would not get them anywhere, and would leave their families unprotected.

Also Arminius wasn't the "Supreme Emperor of the Germanic Tribes", he was merely a man that told them to work together to push the Romans back, there would be no "fighting" for his position after he died. Like you said, he got assassinated, many other tribal leaders did NOT want to be unified. And even if many of the tribal leaders got assasinated (which is kinda ASB) there would still be the will to fight the Romans back, which they could.

Peaceful co-existence did excist to a certain degree, every tribe had their own territory and ocassionaly a tribe got pushed out/around their territory and a massive chain reaction of migration and moving happened, but other than that, the tribes normally had no beef with their neighbours.

And it's true, there obviously isn't an actual national identity, the Germanics are still smart enough to know that their traditional neighbours are different from the Roman invaders, so yeah, like you said, there is a local identity.

I agree with you that if the Romans really wanted to conquer Germania they could have, but I believe the only way possible would be to simply overwhelm them by sheer numbers.

I have studied the Germanic tribes for a long time and are probably my greatest historical interest, I've even read several works by Tacticus in Latin about them, I really not think that they are as primitive as many think they are.

I suggest you read "Imperium Batavorum" by a banned user called Flame, it describes the Batavian rebellion and the aftermath of it. I personally believe that the Batavian revolt is the best historical example of what the tribes are capable of, co-existence and helping one another push out the Romans.

Germania, the Year of the Four Emperors and the Historiae books by Tacticus are books that I suggest you should read about the tribes, it shows you that they're not that primitive.

Anyways, interesting timeline though. :p
 
I believe Rome could and already had pacified Germania at least up to the Elbe at that point. In fact, if not for the huge Pannonian Revolt, a collosal (about 6+ legions I think it was if I remember right) army was about to invade the last remaining "dangerous" tribe on the Roman side of the Elbe; the Marcomanni. The Arminius led rebellion was hugely succesful but only at it's start point. Teutoberger Wald was brilliant because Varus was too trusting, had a disorganised column marching through a boggy, forested area where his men were spread thin and vulnerable.

And let's not forget Arminius had the element of surprise! But once he had revealed his treachery, Germanicus was able to wipe the floor with him in pitched battle at Idistavio. During his campagin of retridution Germanicus was lured into several traps; but his competant command allowed him to think on his feet and avoid disaster unlike Varus. Had Augustus' old age and huge sorrow at the humiliating defeat of Teutoberg not clouded his opinion, Tiberius wouldn't have recalled Germanicus. I believe that if Germanicus had been allowed to continue in Germania, even after Teutoberg Forest he could have brought it firmly under Roman control.

It's just the fact that at the time the Romans didn't appear to care much about conquering Germania, just extracting retribution. Tiberius was not a very creative emperor and followed Augustus' Rhine border advice even long after his death. But if they had just put in the effort to conquer, I don't believe the Germans would have provided anymore resistance than Boudicca or Vercingetorix did in Britannia or Gaul. Germania would have fallen just as all the others.

Just my opinion. :p
 
Interesting to know. So Germania is not invincible which is my point. Gaul and Britannia were similar in levels of development and in the case of Gaul perhaps even superior in numbers than the Germans.
 
Interesting to know. So Germania is not invincible which is my point. Gaul and Britannia were similar in levels of development and in the case of Gaul perhaps even superior in numbers than the Germans.


That was precisely the point.

Gaul and Britannia (or at least Britannia's southern half) were developed enough to be worth conquering. Once the Romans hit poorer areas like Caledonia, Germany, Morocco etc, they tended to lose interest unless the conquest was very quick and easy - and sometimes even when it was.
 
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This provoked a civil war as more claimants to the throne emerged to challenge Lucius’s claim, thus precipitating the Third Century Crisis and providing the Julian Dynasty with an unbefitting demise.

Of course. The Roman era of prosperity can't last forever.

But Marcus being the 5-year-old son of an 87-year-old father? That's a little farfetched if you ask me.

I wish that I was knowledged enough on the era to comment more than 'good story' and asking whether this Lucius is related to OTL's Septimius Severus. However, I did take the liberty of correcting some things on Eurofed's map, which, despite his claims to the contrary, was not fully UCS when concerning the puppets. I also made it up to date (more or less) by adding Cimbria, Scotland and Hibernia to the mighty Roman Empire.

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Of course. The Roman era of prosperity can't last forever.

But Marcus being the 5-year-old son of an 87-year-old father? That's a little farfetched if you ask me.

I wish that I was knowledged enough on the era to comment more than 'good story' and asking whether this Lucius is related to OTL's Septimius Severus. However, I did take the liberty of correcting some things on Eurofed's map, which, despite his claims to the contrary, was not fully UCS when concerning the puppets. I also made it up to date (more or less) by adding Cimbria, Scotland and Hibernia to the mighty Roman Empire.

Right, grandson it is for Marcus. As for Severus, he's not OTL Septimius Severus. Same ancestors perhaps ;).
 
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