The Eigth Continent "Hawaii"

The Polynesians colonized Hawaii in 500 AD and already your comparing it to India and China, places that have been colonized since ancient times?

That's our timeline. Your Hawaii is a much bigger place, and as you've pointed out, extends below the equator. It's southern and western shores would have been relatively close to islands such as Kiribati, the Marshall Islands and Tuvalu, which were all settled likely within the first millenium BC. The appropriate date for discovery and settlement of your Hawaii would probably be approximately 2500 years ago, give or take a few hundred, with the place being reasonably filled within 500 years, give or take.


Even the American Indian was in North America for alot longer than that and it was no India or China.
A significant difference is that the American Indians arrived in the Americas as a hunter/gatherer culture.

When the Polynesians/Lapita show up at your Hawaii, roughly 2500 years ago, they have neolithic technology, but they're quite a bit more advanced than the Amerindians. They have at least three or four domesticated animals - pigs, dogs, chicken and polynesian rats. They've got several domesticated plant crops - including Taro and Yams. They have a well developed agricultural economy, a complex society with elaborate geneologies and herarchy, and a technology that includes deepwater fishing, textiles and woven cloth, sophisticated boatbuilding and navigation and stone monuments.

All of this would have been a legacy of the Samoan/Polynesian culture which was going out and colonizing these Islands. So most if not all of this, while it evolved over time, would be a starting legacy brought to your Hawaii. The preceding culture, the Lapita, actually had ceramics, a technology not found in the Polynesians themselves.

These were not hunter gatherers. This was, within the limits of stone and wood technology, quite a sophisticated culture, and one which continued to develop in remarkable ways on many of its islands.

In addition, your Hawaii is large enough, and well situated enough, that a sophisticated population could well have made contact with Southeast Asia and obtained more domesticated plants and animals, metallurgy and renewed ceramics. Unlike the Pacific Islands which were generally resource poor, your Hawaii is a continent which should have significant deposits of clay, copper, tin, lead and iron, so there's really little holding them back.

My feeling is that the Polynesians would be divided among many many tribes like the American Indians in North America.

We can assume that the initial colonization of your Hawaii would be from only a few groups in the first centuries, likely from Samoa, Fiji, Tonga, Tuvalu and possibly the Marshalls and Kiribati. There may have been as many as a dozen significant colonizations, or perhaps as few as two or three principal ones.

From there, we can assume a high degree of linguistic and cultural coherence. This will diverge rapidly. But by and large, most of the cultures will be closely related, and languages will be close. The only wild card might be micronesian or melanesian influences.

There would likely be quite a bit of dispersal and cultural and linguistic divergence, but it would be nowhere near as heterodox as the tribes and languages of Africa, the Americas or even Australia. The time scales of these places are all in the tens of millenia. Hawaii's pre-contact history is maybe two millenia, give or take.

So my question is in what important ways are Polynesians different from North American Indians, and I don't mean by physical appearances or their root language. North American Indians were a bunch of nomadic tribes often at war with each other, they practised limited agriculture and their meat was usually obtained through hunting, I believe the Polynesians weren't much different than that, they were an Island seagoing culture that obtained much of their food through fishing.
Hmmmm. No offense, but you might want to do a bit of research on Polynesian and Micronesian cultures and history. A bit more nuance on American Indians might help as well.

Polynesians were indeed skilled fishers, and both inshore and deep water fishing were important economic activities and key parts of their diets. But they also raised pigs and chicken, and they also cultivated land. In many polynesian islands, there were vast agricultural works and pretty much all arable land was cultivated and irrigated. The staple of the diet was not fish, but agriculture.

The only Polynesian model that resembles your view of North American Indians were probably the Maori of New Zealand's South Island. What happened there was that the Polynesian agricultural package didn't work at all. The Polynesian package was tropical. It barely worked in the North Island, requiring a new domesticated crop and considerable adaptation. But the South Island was simply too temperate, tropical crops didn't grow.

The South Island Maori therefore were forced to switch to a hunter/gatherer lifestyle, with a very limited (if at all) agricultural component. They then proceeded to hunt out the local game, the Moa, experienced a population crash, and re-established themselves at a relatively low level.

Now I don't believe Polynesians raised livestock before the Europeans made contact with them, they only brought themselves with they came to Hawaii.
Well, as noted, they did have several domesticated animals that they used for meat, eggs, feather and leather. However, they had no draft animals obviously.

I think there might be some animals they might possibly domesticate. Do you think a flightless bird the size of a horse is within the range of possibility? How about the idea of bird riders?
The modern giant Birds - the Ostrich, Rhea, Cassowary, Emu, Moa and Aeropynis, found (or recently extinct) in Africa, Australia, South America, New Zealand and Madagascar are all Rattites. Most, if not all, of the giant flightless extinct birds seem to have been Rattites. I assumed for a while that Rattites were a catch all category for a group of unrelated species. I've since learned however that current thinking is that the Rattites are all products of a common ancestor which evolved during the age of dinosaurs and managed to survive the extinction event, producing descendants in the Southern continents.

Will you get Rattites in Hawaii? it depends on where your Hawaii comes from. If it develops in isolation, without ever having been a part of the supercontinents, then no Rattites. If its a breakaway part of another continent or supercontinent, then its possible.

In OTL timeline, we did see the evolutlion of giant flightless ducks in Hawaii. But 'giant' is a relative term, they weren't much bigger than big turkeys. Conceivably, without competition, empty niches and a longer period to evolve, we might have seen larger and more diverse specimens.

As for riding... riding actually shows up pretty late in stock animal domestication. The earliest uses of domesticated animals for labour seems to be in carrying burdens or pulling loads - thus we have dogs pulling inuit sleds or Indian travois. We have Llamas and Oxen and Reindeer carrying packs. Oxen and Water Buffalo pulling plows.

Actual riding shows up with horses, camels and somewhat with moose and elephants. Even then, it appears that horses were used to pull carts and chariots as much as ride, and pulling loads or carrying burdens may well have been the first uses.

It's possible you'd get a big riding bird, if you care to design the species. Go for it.

Birds are after all the closest living relatives of the dinosaurs, it seems reasonable to suppose that an isolated continent might evolve very large varieties of flightless birds. How about a "Tyranno-raptor" for example, basically a huge carnivorous bird that approaches the size of a T-Rex, though something that size would need some other type of prey than humans.
You might want to read up on the carnivorous terror birds of of North and South America, notably the Phororuscids. Also, check out the Australian Demon Duck of Doom. It may give you some ideas.

Now if the Polynesians were on Hawaii for 1300 years, would they have had time to kill off all the continent's population of tyranno-raptors? would they even have conquered the entire continent is such a short span of time?
I'm thinking more likely double that time span. But having said that, it's very much up in the air. You'll likely have extremely variable population densities. And likely a lot of the original habitats are going to be intact. I'd say its likely that a lot of the original flora and fauna survives into the modern era.

But then, I'm being a bit heretical. The consensus is that invasions of this sort invariably result in Megafauna extinctions - as seen in Australia, the Americas, Madagascar and New Zealand. But that's another argument.

China and India are huge populous countries that existed long before Europeans ever got their, I'd say in the sense your talking about, the first European to "colonize" India was probably Alexander the Great, but he didn't colonize India in the American sense of the word. I don't really get a sense of Polynesian Hawaii being a really ancient culture like China or India, you realize of course that both Buddism and Hinduism are much older than Christianity, and China and India were never really British in the way that the North American colonies were.
Well, the North American British colonies were British through settlement of Europeans and displacement or extermination of the Aboriginal peoples.

But even in the Americas, that was hardly cut and dried. A large portion of Mexico's population for instance is Indian or mixed Meztiso. South Mexico and Guatemala still have huge Mayan populations. Natives form a large part of the populatlions of Venezuala, Columbia, Peru and Bolivia. Even in New Zealand, the Maori have proven numerous enough and resistant enough that they're an ongoing political and social factor.

Your question for Hawaii is whether European colonists can successfully displace an extremely well established native population. By and large, in Africa, in the Middle East and in Asia, that has not been a good bet, and even in Latin America the results were so so. For the most part, the record with existing Polynesian cultures in our time line is that they survived European conquest and avoided displacement by settlers, except in outliers like Easter Island, New Zealand and OTL Hawaii.

Will displacement and settlement occur in your Hawaii? It's a toss up. If the population is well established and comparatively sophisticated, its hard. If the population is extremely vulnerable to disease, it might be easier.

I think its likely that Hawaii would be colonized in the same era that Australia was, these are the last few continents to be discovered by Europeans, they would naturally want to colonize those land masses that are closest to them first unless..
Discovery and even trade is not synonymous with colonization and conquest. Pacific Islands were known for centuries before the European flags started getting planted on Islands. That's why Germany had Pacific Island possessions - it didn't even exist while these places were being discovered.

While the history of the Americas is one of outright conquest, the history in Asia and Africa was one of trading networks and trading rights, spheres of influence and commercial ventures. The traditional European Colonial/Conquest in Africa and Asia was really a 19th century thing.

So basically, you've got two models to work with - the Americas model and the Asia/Africa model. Your Hawaii doesn't quite fit either one, but I'd suggest its closer to Asia/Africa.
 

Tom Kalbfus

Banned
That's our timeline. Your Hawaii is a much bigger place, and as you've pointed out, extends below the equator. It's southern and western shores would have been relatively close to islands such as Kiribati, the Marshall Islands and Tuvalu, which were all settled likely within the first millenium BC. The appropriate date for discovery and settlement of your Hawaii would probably be approximately 2500 years ago, give or take a few hundred, with the place being reasonably filled within 500 years, give or take.


A significant difference is that the American Indians arrived in the Americas as a hunter/gatherer culture.

When the Polynesians/Lapita show up at your Hawaii, roughly 2500 years ago, they have neolithic technology, but they're quite a bit more advanced than the Amerindians. They have at least three or four domesticated animals - pigs, dogs, chicken and polynesian rats. They've got several domesticated plant crops - including Taro and Yams. They have a well developed agricultural economy, a complex society with elaborate geneologies and herarchy, and a technology that includes deepwater fishing, textiles and woven cloth, sophisticated boatbuilding and navigation and stone monuments.

All of this would have been a legacy of the Samoan/Polynesian culture which was going out and colonizing these Islands. So most if not all of this, while it evolved over time, would be a starting legacy brought to your Hawaii. The preceding culture, the Lapita, actually had ceramics, a technology not found in the Polynesians themselves.

These were not hunter gatherers. This was, within the limits of stone and wood technology, quite a sophisticated culture, and one which continued to develop in remarkable ways on many of its islands.

In addition, your Hawaii is large enough, and well situated enough, that a sophisticated population could well have made contact with Southeast Asia and obtained more domesticated plants and animals, metallurgy and renewed ceramics. Unlike the Pacific Islands which were generally resource poor, your Hawaii is a continent which should have significant deposits of clay, copper, tin, lead and iron, so there's really little holding them back.

My feeling is that the Polynesians would be divided among many many tribes like the American Indians in North America.

We can assume that the initial colonization of your Hawaii would be from only a few groups in the first centuries, likely from Samoa, Fiji, Tonga, Tuvalu and possibly the Marshalls and Kiribati. There may have been as many as a dozen significant colonizations, or perhaps as few as two or three principal ones.

From there, we can assume a high degree of linguistic and cultural coherence. This will diverge rapidly. But by and large, most of the cultures will be closely related, and languages will be close. The only wild card might be micronesian or melanesian influences.

There would likely be quite a bit of dispersal and cultural and linguistic divergence, but it would be nowhere near as heterodox as the tribes and languages of Africa, the Americas or even Australia. The time scales of these places are all in the tens of millenia. Hawaii's pre-contact history is maybe two millenia, give or take.

Hmmmm. No offense, but you might want to do a bit of research on Polynesian and Micronesian cultures and history. A bit more nuance on American Indians might help as well.

Polynesians were indeed skilled fishers, and both inshore and deep water fishing were important economic activities and key parts of their diets. But they also raised pigs and chicken, and they also cultivated land. In many polynesian islands, there were vast agricultural works and pretty much all arable land was cultivated and irrigated. The staple of the diet was not fish, but agriculture.

The only Polynesian model that resembles your view of North American Indians were probably the Maori of New Zealand's South Island. What happened there was that the Polynesian agricultural package didn't work at all. The Polynesian package was tropical. It barely worked in the North Island, requiring a new domesticated crop and considerable adaptation. But the South Island was simply too temperate, tropical crops didn't grow.

The South Island Maori therefore were forced to switch to a hunter/gatherer lifestyle, with a very limited (if at all) agricultural component. They then proceeded to hunt out the local game, the Moa, experienced a population crash, and re-established themselves at a relatively low level.

Well, as noted, they did have several domesticated animals that they used for meat, eggs, feather and leather. However, they had no draft animals obviously.

The modern giant Birds - the Ostrich, Rhea, Cassowary, Emu, Moa and Aeropynis, found (or recently extinct) in Africa, Australia, South America, New Zealand and Madagascar are all Rattites. Most, if not all, of the giant flightless extinct birds seem to have been Rattites. I assumed for a while that Rattites were a catch all category for a group of unrelated species. I've since learned however that current thinking is that the Rattites are all products of a common ancestor which evolved during the age of dinosaurs and managed to survive the extinction event, producing descendants in the Southern continents.

Will you get Rattites in Hawaii? it depends on where your Hawaii comes from. If it develops in isolation, without ever having been a part of the supercontinents, then no Rattites. If its a breakaway part of another continent or supercontinent, then its possible.

In OTL timeline, we did see the evolutlion of giant flightless ducks in Hawaii. But 'giant' is a relative term, they weren't much bigger than big turkeys. Conceivably, without competition, empty niches and a longer period to evolve, we might have seen larger and more diverse specimens.

As for riding... riding actually shows up pretty late in stock animal domestication. The earliest uses of domesticated animals for labour seems to be in carrying burdens or pulling loads - thus we have dogs pulling inuit sleds or Indian travois. We have Llamas and Oxen and Reindeer carrying packs. Oxen and Water Buffalo pulling plows.

Actual riding shows up with horses, camels and somewhat with moose and elephants. Even then, it appears that horses were used to pull carts and chariots as much as ride, and pulling loads or carrying burdens may well have been the first uses.

It's possible you'd get a big riding bird, if you care to design the species. Go for it.

You might want to read up on the carnivorous terror birds of of North and South America, notably the Phororuscids. Also, check out the Australian Demon Duck of Doom. It may give you some ideas.

I'm thinking more likely double that time span. But having said that, it's very much up in the air. You'll likely have extremely variable population densities. And likely a lot of the original habitats are going to be intact. I'd say its likely that a lot of the original flora and fauna survives into the modern era.

But then, I'm being a bit heretical. The consensus is that invasions of this sort invariably result in Megafauna extinctions - as seen in Australia, the Americas, Madagascar and New Zealand. But that's another argument.

Well, the North American British colonies were British through settlement of Europeans and displacement or extermination of the Aboriginal peoples.

But even in the Americas, that was hardly cut and dried. A large portion of Mexico's population for instance is Indian or mixed Meztiso. South Mexico and Guatemala still have huge Mayan populations. Natives form a large part of the populatlions of Venezuala, Columbia, Peru and Bolivia. Even in New Zealand, the Maori have proven numerous enough and resistant enough that they're an ongoing political and social factor.

Your question for Hawaii is whether European colonists can successfully displace an extremely well established native population. By and large, in Africa, in the Middle East and in Asia, that has not been a good bet, and even in Latin America the results were so so. For the most part, the record with existing Polynesian cultures in our time line is that they survived European conquest and avoided displacement by settlers, except in outliers like Easter Island, New Zealand and OTL Hawaii.

Will displacement and settlement occur in your Hawaii? It's a toss up. If the population is well established and comparatively sophisticated, its hard. If the population is extremely vulnerable to disease, it might be easier.

Discovery and even trade is not synonymous with colonization and conquest. Pacific Islands were known for centuries before the European flags started getting planted on Islands. That's why Germany had Pacific Island possessions - it didn't even exist while these places were being discovered.

While the history of the Americas is one of outright conquest, the history in Asia and Africa was one of trading networks and trading rights, spheres of influence and commercial ventures. The traditional European Colonial/Conquest in Africa and Asia was really a 19th century thing.

So basically, you've got two models to work with - the Americas model and the Asia/Africa model. Your Hawaii doesn't quite fit either one, but I'd suggest its closer to Asia/Africa.
That's very helpful. What do you think the chances are of an actual Polynesian Empire say with cities, pictogram writing similar to the Aztecs perhaps. Easter Island did some statues, but there island was small.

I think there may be one or two civilizations based in river valleys, surrounded by a number of more barbaric tribes perhaps. The civilizations might be copper age or bronze, or perhaps utilize even iron. There appear to be chains of islands connecting the continent to Asia, but then there are also chains of islands including Indonesia that connect Australia to Asia and Australia was settled only by stone age aborigines.

I'm also interested in having more wilder portions, a sort of more realistic "Lost World" you might say, perhaps with Tyranno-raptors stalking prey in the Savannas of this continent. I think a 15-foot tall Tyranno-raptor might be big enough to give some European Explorers and natives some pause.

What might the Tyranno-raptor eat? Perhaps giant lizards, Phorusrhacus inflatus, and Diatryma gigantea are examples of large flightless birds. Lets say we double this 7-foot height to 15 feet, give the creature thicker legs and a nasty hooked beak and the scientific name Phorusrhacus Tyrannus, this creature has the rough body form of a T-Rex, except the hooked beak replaces the mouthful of teeth, its covered with feathers and two tiny vestigial wings on its side and a short tail, it also has a very loud call, sort of sounds like a cross between the "Caaaw!" of a crow and a roar or a lion, as is the case of most birds the male bird have the prettier plumage while the females are larger and more ferocious.

I think for a herbivore a giant ostrich-like bird standing 10 feet tall when its long neck is raised upward might do, these eat grass and berries and things. The feathers of these birds are quite prized, and probably there will be a trade in them.

Since the Polynesians brought their own animals, there would probably be a lot of wild boars running around by now and Tyranno-raptors would be running them down and taking a few bites every now and then. I'd say the Spaniards would probably bring the first horses to walk the land by the mid 1500s if not sooner, probably by the 1700s there will be wild herds of these as well.
 
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The Polynesians colonized Hawaii in 500 AD and already your comparing it to India and China, places that have been colonized since ancient times? Even the American Indian was in North America for alot longer than that and it was no India or China. My feeling is that the Polynesians would be divided among many many tribes like the American Indians in North America. So my question is in what important ways are Polynesians different from North American Indians, and I don't mean by physical appearances or their root language. North American Indians were a bunch of nomadic tribes often at war with each other, they practised limited agriculture and their meat was usually obtained through hunting, I believe the Polynesians weren't much different than that, they were an Island seagoing culture that obtained much of their food through fishing. Now in a continental Hawaii, the Polynesians might adopt a culture that is much closer to the American Indian, or perhaps the central and south American Indians, not in language or culture perhaps, but in the way they obtain their food certainly.

Like others pointed out, you need a subtler view of Indians. Sheesh, it's like you've only read books written before 1950. Maybe not even that, because it's like you've never read about Aztec or Incan agriculture, far superior to European. (For that matter, Hopi dry irrigation has some superior features to Euro techniques, but I doubt you know it.

What hasn't been discussed yet is contact between the Americas and this new continent, which will certainly come before Euro contact.

IOTL Polynesians and Maoris sailed to the Americas and their DNA is among Indian tribes in present day Ecuador, Mexico, and Canada. No reason this wouldn't happen in TTL between Greater Hawaii and the Americas. With greater resources and a greater population base, it's interesting to imagine trade and exchange of technology between Mesoamerica and GH. Polynesian sailing tech utilized by Aztecs and Aztec medicine and astronomy used by Polyenesians...
 

Tom Kalbfus

Banned
Like others pointed out, you need a subtler view of Indians. Sheesh, it's like you've only read books written before 1950. Maybe not even that, because it's like you've never read about Aztec or Incan agriculture, far superior to European. (For that matter, Hopi dry irrigation has some superior features to Euro techniques, but I doubt you know it.

What hasn't been discussed yet is contact between the Americas and this new continent, which will certainly come before Euro contact.

IOTL Polynesians and Maoris sailed to the Americas and their DNA is among Indian tribes in present day Ecuador, Mexico, and Canada. No reason this wouldn't happen in TTL between Greater Hawaii and the Americas. With greater resources and a greater population base, it's interesting to imagine trade and exchange of technology between Mesoamerica and GH. Polynesian sailing tech utilized by Aztecs and Aztec medicine and astronomy used by Polyenesians...
Well if the Polynesians sailed over to the New World, they would have brought over diseases that would have killed a great many Native Americans, their technology wouldn't be as superior, so the Polynesians couldn't simply displace the American Indians and Indians might aquire techniquest of animal husbandry and boat building in exchange as well as a better immune system when they recover. So what will Columbus find, bronze age Indians perhaps with wheeled carts and primitive sailing ships with oars? Lacking draft animals, those carts would probably be pulled by people.
 
DValdron did a very informative and thorough job of answering Tom's concerns... I'll just throw in a few cents.

You might want to read up on the carnivorous terror birds of of North and South America, notably the Phororuscids. Also, check out the Australian Demon Duck of Doom. It may give you some ideas.

I was also going to point out the fierce Haast's Eagle of New Zealand, which unlike many dinosaurs had the advantage of flight in addition to being the top predator in its ecosystem prior to the arrival of humans. It preyed on very large flightless birds. No doubt it was capable of preying on humans, perhaps especially in its last days when the humans has exhausted its main food resources... Eventually, however, the humans won out and the Haast's Ealge went extinct. I'd wager that any "tyranno-raptor" is unlikely to survive very long with human coexistcnce.

That's very helpful. What do you think the chances are of an actual Polynesian Empire say with cities, pictogram writing similar to the Aztecs perhaps. Easter Island did some statues, but there island was small.

Look into the Tu'i Tonga, an actual civilization which thrived in the Tonga islands. It had a very complex, heirarchical social system, and its power structure collected tribute from many islands far beyond Tonga, including Samoa, Fiji, Tuvalu and as far as Tikopia in the Solomon Islands.

It left behind stone ruins in the form of tombs called "langi". Also, in Wallis and Futuna, it left behind the ruins of a pretty impressive stone fort called Talietumu.

Some of the most impressive earthworks, however, were Nan Madol in Micronesia. It wasn't a Polynesian civilization, but the Micronesians had many of the same circumstances and resources, and there may have been some back-and-forth influence between the various cultures.

Nan Madol is called the "Venice of the Pacific"... You really need to see pictures of it for yourself.

As for a written language, Easter Island did have that in the form of rongorongo. It's not known whether it existed prior to Dutch contact, but there are good arguments that it did. Even if it was the result of European influence, this influence was likely limited to mere inspiration, and the innovation and form of the writing system would have been entirely indigenous.

Also, an interesting detail of the Treaty of Waitangi between the Maori chiefs and the British is the signatures of the Maori chiefs... Though they did not have a written language, they made up symbols in order to sign their names. It's very interesting that they grasped the concept so quickly and it's further evidence of the potential for the development of Polynesian scripts.

I think there may be one or two civilizations based in river valleys, surrounded by a number of more barbaric tribes perhaps. The civilizations might be copper age or bronze, or perhaps utilize even iron. There appear to be chains of islands connecting the continent to Asia, but then there are also chains of islands including Indonesia that connect Australia to Asia and Australia was settled only by stone age aborigines.

Australia is a different case altogether. Take into account how isolated it was... The nearest inhabited island was New Guinea, which has one of the most brutal terrains in the world. Besides it being hard to find, the reason the South East Asian civilizations had few connections to it was because the climate in the part of Australia nearest to Indonesia was pretty barren. There is evidence of a maritime Indonesian culture called the Macassans trading in northern Australia before Europeans, but the only resource worth their voyages was a sea slug... It just wasn't worth it for them to colonize.

There is evidence that the Aborigines did develop some pretty interesting infrastructure... Eel farming in South Australia, for example.

Like others pointed out, you need a subtler view of Indians. Sheesh, it's like you've only read books written before 1950. Maybe not even that, because it's like you've never read about Aztec or Incan agriculture, far superior to European. (For that matter, Hopi dry irrigation has some superior features to Euro techniques, but I doubt you know it.

What hasn't been discussed yet is contact between the Americas and this new continent, which will certainly come before Euro contact.

IOTL Polynesians and Maoris sailed to the Americas and their DNA is among Indian tribes in present day Ecuador, Mexico, and Canada. No reason this wouldn't happen in TTL between Greater Hawaii and the Americas. With greater resources and a greater population base, it's interesting to imagine trade and exchange of technology between Mesoamerica and GH. Polynesian sailing tech utilized by Aztecs and Aztec medicine and astronomy used by Polyenesians...

Well if the Polynesians sailed over to the New World, they would have brought over diseases that would have killed a great many Native Americans, their technology wouldn't be as superior, so the Polynesians couldn't simply displace the American Indians and Indians might aquire techniquest of animal husbandry and boat building in exchange as well as a better immune system when they recover. So what will Columbus find, bronze age Indians perhaps with wheeled carts and primitive sailing ships with oars? Lacking draft animals, those carts would probably be pulled by people.

We can't underestimate the Pre-Columbian sailing technology... The Taino of the Caribbean regularly traded with the Mesoamericans, and they did have relatively advanced boat technology (with oars, of course). The South Americans also made sailing vessels out of balsa wood that had sails and could be relatively large in size.

Also, I don't believe the Polynesians had any great diseases to spread to the New World. In fact, many Pacific islands faced a similar lack of immunity to that of the Native Americans when they first encountered Europeans.

The only confirmed contact between Polynesians and Native Americans is in southern Chile, where chicken bones were discovered and where the Mapuche today have a very distinctive breed of chicken called the arauco.
 
I wasn't familiar with references to DNA overlaps in aboriginal populations from Chile through Ecuador. Can you give me some references.

There's a lot of evidence for some sort of ongoing contact between Polynesians and Andean Americans (possibly up as far as the California coast). Most of this consists of cultural traits, alleged loan words, games, rituals, bits of technology from the coastal American cultures which seem out of place and seem related to the Polynesians.

There are two big pieces of basically irrefutable biological evidence suggesting some contact. The first is the Sweet Potato, a domesticated root, entirely indigenous to South America, which somehow shows up and spreads rapidly through west and central Polynesia circa 700 - 1000 CE. This argues for both contact with the Andes and for substantial contact ongoing among Polynesian Islands. There is no way that the Sweet Potato could have made it out there by flotation. Even the Polynesian word for Sweet Potator, Kumara is similar to the Andean word, Kumar. There's also a bottle gourd from America that's in use.

The other big piece is chickens, genetically identical to Polynesian chickens, whose presence in South America predates European introduction by at least a century.

However, I don't believe that either the Maori or Hawaians had American contact. That seems to have gone through the Tahiti, Marquessas, Rapa Nui group.

There is at least one story floating around that the Inca in 1480 made a 10 month voyage of exploration into the Pacific, and there has been archeological speculation that at least some of the stonework on Easter Island bears a suspicious resemblance to Inca work.

In the altered timeline, the Islands which had contact with South America probably would continue to have these contacts. But the big difference is that a Hawaiian continent, and higher Polynesian civilisation might have maintained ongoing and higher volume sea trade. Which might mean ultimately more contact with America and longer.
 
I was also going to point out the fierce Haast's Eagle of New Zealand, which unlike many dinosaurs had the advantage of flight in addition to being the top predator in its ecosystem prior to the arrival of humans. It preyed on very large flightless birds. No doubt it was capable of preying on humans, perhaps especially in its last days when the humans has exhausted its main food resources... Eventually, however, the humans won out and the Haast's Ealge went extinct. I'd wager that any "tyranno-raptor" is unlikely to survive very long with human coexistcnce.

Tom may also want to do a little reading on the Teratorns of South America. 25 foot wingspreads, two hundred and fifty pounds, the largest birds ever to fly.
 

Tom Kalbfus

Banned
DValdron did a very informative and thorough job of answering Tom's concerns... I'll just throw in a few cents.



I was also going to point out the fierce Haast's Eagle of New Zealand, which unlike many dinosaurs had the advantage of flight in addition to being the top predator in its ecosystem prior to the arrival of humans. It preyed on very large flightless birds. No doubt it was capable of preying on humans, perhaps especially in its last days when the humans has exhausted its main food resources... Eventually, however, the humans won out and the Haast's Ealge went extinct. I'd wager that any "tyranno-raptor" is unlikely to survive very long with human coexistcnce.



Look into the Tu'i Tonga, an actual civilization which thrived in the Tonga islands. It had a very complex, heirarchical social system, and its power structure collected tribute from many islands far beyond Tonga, including Samoa, Fiji, Tuvalu and as far as Tikopia in the Solomon Islands.

It left behind stone ruins in the form of tombs called "langi". Also, in Wallis and Futuna, it left behind the ruins of a pretty impressive stone fort called Talietumu.

Some of the most impressive earthworks, however, were Nan Madol in Micronesia. It wasn't a Polynesian civilization, but the Micronesians had many of the same circumstances and resources, and there may have been some back-and-forth influence between the various cultures.

Nan Madol is called the "Venice of the Pacific"... You really need to see pictures of it for yourself.

As for a written language, Easter Island did have that in the form of rongorongo. It's not known whether it existed prior to Dutch contact, but there are good arguments that it did. Even if it was the result of European influence, this influence was likely limited to mere inspiration, and the innovation and form of the writing system would have been entirely indigenous.

Also, an interesting detail of the Treaty of Waitangi between the Maori chiefs and the British is the signatures of the Maori chiefs... Though they did not have a written language, they made up symbols in order to sign their names. It's very interesting that they grasped the concept so quickly and it's further evidence of the potential for the development of Polynesian scripts.



Australia is a different case altogether. Take into account how isolated it was... The nearest inhabited island was New Guinea, which has one of the most brutal terrains in the world. Besides it being hard to find, the reason the South East Asian civilizations had few connections to it was because the climate in the part of Australia nearest to Indonesia was pretty barren. There is evidence of a maritime Indonesian culture called the Macassans trading in northern Australia before Europeans, but the only resource worth their voyages was a sea slug... It just wasn't worth it for them to colonize.

There is evidence that the Aborigines did develop some pretty interesting infrastructure... Eel farming in South Australia, for example.





We can't underestimate the Pre-Columbian sailing technology... The Taino of the Caribbean regularly traded with the Mesoamericans, and they did have relatively advanced boat technology (with oars, of course). The South Americans also made sailing vessels out of balsa wood that had sails and could be relatively large in size.

Also, I don't believe the Polynesians had any great diseases to spread to the New World. In fact, many Pacific islands faced a similar lack of immunity to that of the Native Americans when they first encountered Europeans.

The only confirmed contact between Polynesians and Native Americans is in southern Chile, where chicken bones were discovered and where the Mapuche today have a very distinctive breed of chicken called the arauco.
In that case we're back to the original Columbus scenario, and in addition, since the Hawaiians are living on a continent, there are fewer barriers to the spread of "white man's" diseases, so you might see a similar Die off when Captain Cook steps onto the continent, this sort of preserves the OTU history for the Americas more or less.
 
I'm also interested in having more wilder portions, a sort of more realistic "Lost World" you might say, perhaps with Tyranno-raptors stalking prey in the Savannas of this continent. I think a 15-foot tall Tyranno-raptor might be big enough to give some European Explorers and natives some pause.

What might the Tyranno-raptor eat? Perhaps giant lizards, Phorusrhacus inflatus, and Diatryma gigantea are examples of large flightless birds. Lets say we double this 7-foot height to 15 feet, give the creature thicker legs and a nasty hooked beak and the scientific name Phorusrhacus Tyrannus, this creature has the rough body form of a T-Rex, except the hooked beak replaces the mouthful of teeth, its covered with feathers and two tiny vestigial wings on its side and a short tail, it also has a very loud call, sort of sounds like a cross between the "Caaaw!" of a crow and a roar or a lion, as is the case of most birds the male bird have the prettier plumage while the females are larger and more ferocious.

You don't believe in making things easy, do you Tom.

Alright, here's what we got for big-ass flightless birds. We got the Rattites, appearing probably in Gondwana during the Cretaceous period, diversifying into the Rhea, Cassowary, Emu, Ostrich, Moa and Elephant Birds, and possibly an unknown bird from the Canary Islands. They seem restricted to the Southern hemisphere continents though, which is bad for you. But there is a fossil Ostrich in Europe which tends to shake up the Gondwana origins theory. To my mind though, its likely a traveller from Africa. The Ratites are a pretty easgoing bunch, primarily vegetarian. But its unlikely that they would have ended up in Hawaii.

Not so the Phororuscids - the 'terror birds' of South America. The biggest specimens were 10 feet tall, and bone mean. They were very successful, showing up 60 million years ago and only going out of business one or two million years ago. In fact, they were successful enough to invade North America when the continents joined, and made it up as far as Texas and Florida. They were mean, lean killing machines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phorusrhacidae

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanis_walleri

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelenken

The bad news is that the Phororuscids were strictly new world chicky's. There's no way they could have ended up in Hawaii Continent. At best, they're an example of the way things could go.

Same with the Demon Ducks of Doom in Australia. Dromornis was a series of very big birds, the largest were heavier than the elephant birds and taller than the moa, the largest birds who ever lived. But they maxed out at half a ton. They're believed to have been predators, but that's controversial.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dromornis_stirtoni

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dromornithidae

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullockornis

They go back to the Oligocene era of the Age of Mammals, so they're not terribly old, compared to the Phororuscids of the Ratites. And of course, there's no way they could end up in your Hawaii. Not unless Hawaii is the missing half of Australia, separating about 30 million years ago.

But let's take a look at Diatyrama, also known as Gastornis. These were North American terror birds who showed up about 10 million years after the Dinosaurs had their tickets punched. Oddly, they also show up in Europe, and are believed to have roamed Asia. Although showing up in the age of mammals, they seem to be descended from chickens or fowl (Galloanserae), who emerged during the cretacious. They were tough customers and got fairly big, the largest going over six feet tall. But not tough enough. They died off about 20 or 30 million years ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gastornithiformes

But they, or their ancestors, seem to be in the right place at the right times for Hawaii.

So, let's back it up and assume that your Hawaii is a lost continental plate. Something that broke off from Asia/China roughly 70 to 90 million years ago and started heading west. Well, we're plumb in the middle of the Age of Dinosaurs, but both marsupials and placentals have evolved by this time.

(Of course, this will work as well, for a departure date as late as 35 million years ago).

So, pretty early on, the Galloanserae start diverging and evolving, producing a number of species, including things that are going to turn into Diatyrama, or something very close to it.

Then the big crunch comes, the rocka and rolla, the K-T event, the big daisy herself, and the dinosaurs get their tickets punched. Whatever happens is worldwide, so Hawaii is no refuge. Dinosaurs die there, like they do everywhere else. But its tropical, lots of vacant niches, and probably in shape to recover fast.

The Galloanserae diversify like crazy, moving into all sorts of vegetarian niches, and competing with mammals and marsupials. But the evidence seems to be that the birds had an early advantage as predators - they produced Giant Predators in North America, South America and Australia independently.

So, once again, they produce giant predators in Hawaii. We'll call them Murder Chickens! It's much cooler than Tyranno Raptors, and up there with Demon Ducks and Terror Birds.

Now, what seemed to happen over and over again is that mammal species started producing their own predators, and they pushed the killer birds out of existence. Happened first and fastest with Diatyrama, who seem to have gotten displaced quickly. But then, evolution is happening pretty fast in the Asia/Africa/Europe/North America complex. In South America they held on and even expanded until recently, but lost out to Eurasian predators. In Australia they hung on until humans.

The Hawaian continent probably drifts west, sticking to tropical latitudes. The climate doesn't change much. There's no new infusions of foreign species or competing predators. So the likely outcome is that the Murder Chickens just keep on getting bigger and badder. They are likely not displaced by mammal predators, but rather, tend to occupy most of the Predator niches.

The biggest and baddest are possibly near Tyranno-Raptor scale, although this would be twice as big as any Bird has ever known. There may be a size limit operating for birds. But I'm betting you've got all sorts of Murder chickens, including critters the size of dogs and cats, and all the niches in between.

What are they eating? Likely marsupials, placental mammals, and ground bird species. Expect an evolutionary flowering of the survivors of the big crunch.
 
I wasn't familiar with references to DNA overlaps in aboriginal populations from Chile through Ecuador. Can you give me some references.

I haven't either, and if there is evidence I'd question whether or not it was actually Pre-Columbian... In the 19th Century, Peruvians blackbirders raided Polynesian islands and enslaved many of the people to work in South America. I'd wonder if the Polynesian DNA came from them.
 
This totally fucks with the Earth's systems and completely disrupts El Nino. Ignoring this stuff, I'd say Europeans find out about it from the Japanese/Chinese so probably in the 1300-1500th century. It gets settled and exploited like all the other continents.
 

Tom Kalbfus

Banned
This totally fucks with the Earth's systems and completely disrupts El Nino. Ignoring this stuff, I'd say Europeans find out about it from the Japanese/Chinese so probably in the 1300-1500th century. It gets settled and exploited like all the other continents.
So someone says, "Where's the El Nino?"
"What's an El Nino?"
"Well its not here, so their must be a continent out their we haven't discovered yet."
"Huh?"
 
This totally fucks with the Earth's systems and completely disrupts El Nino. Ignoring this stuff, I'd say Europeans find out about it from the Japanese/Chinese so probably in the 1300-1500th century. It gets settled and exploited like all the other continents.

We can expect significant changes to the Pacific currents, principally to the north and south equatorial currents and equatorial countercurrent. But the El Nino/La Nina complex should be comparatively unaffected. It's a factor of heat dynamic interactions between Australia and Tahiti, and an antarctic current moving up south America. So it seems well out of the direct effects of Hawaii. Not that there won't be indirect effects. But I would expect something very similar to the El Nino/La Nina complex in this Timeline.

Apart from that, we can expect major disruptions to ocean currents, but the impacts will be local. The principal ones are a potentially wetter Australia, and a warmer and stormier Siberia, at least their coasts.
 

Tom Kalbfus

Banned
We can expect significant changes to the Pacific currents, principally to the north and south equatorial currents and equatorial countercurrent. But the El Nino/La Nina complex should be comparatively unaffected. It's a factor of heat dynamic interactions between Australia and Tahiti, and an antarctic current moving up south America. So it seems well out of the direct effects of Hawaii. Not that there won't be indirect effects. But I would expect something very similar to the El Nino/La Nina complex in this Timeline.

Apart from that, we can expect major disruptions to ocean currents, but the impacts will be local. The principal ones are a potentially wetter Australia, and a warmer and stormier Siberia, at least their coasts.
I think the weather will be temperate on the North East coast of Hawaii, in other words it should be cooler that at corresponding latitudes on the West Coast of North America and Hawaii. I think colonists from Americawould be quite comfortable there. The Island of Midway is larger that Massachusetts, and it is squarely in the temperate zone, it would be a good candidate to be the 50th state of the United States if there is a United States in this timeline. Judging from its latitude, its weather should correspond with Virginia. I think there is a cooling current coming down from Alaska, so it would be chillier than Northern California.
 
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I wasn't familiar with references to DNA overlaps in aboriginal populations from Chile through Ecuador. Can you give me some references.

There's a lot of evidence for some sort of ongoing contact between Polynesians and Andean Americans (possibly up as far as the California coast). Most of this consists of cultural traits, alleged loan words, games, rituals, bits of technology from the coastal American cultures which seem out of place and seem related to the Polynesians.

There are two big pieces of basically irrefutable biological evidence suggesting some contact. The first is the Sweet Potato, a domesticated root, entirely indigenous to South America, which somehow shows up and spreads rapidly through west and central Polynesia circa 700 - 1000 CE. This argues for both contact with the Andes and for substantial contact ongoing among Polynesian Islands. There is no way that the Sweet Potato could have made it out there by flotation. Even the Polynesian word for Sweet Potator, Kumara is similar to the Andean word, Kumar. There's also a bottle gourd from America that's in use.

The other big piece is chickens, genetically identical to Polynesian chickens, whose presence in South America predates European introduction by at least a century.

However, I don't believe that either the Maori or Hawaians had American contact. That seems to have gone through the Tahiti, Marquessas, Rapa Nui group.

There is at least one story floating around that the Inca in 1480 made a 10 month voyage of exploration into the Pacific, and there has been archeological speculation that at least some of the stonework on Easter Island bears a suspicious resemblance to Inca work.

In the altered timeline, the Islands which had contact with South America probably would continue to have these contacts. But the big difference is that a Hawaiian continent, and higher Polynesian civilisation might have maintained ongoing and higher volume sea trade. Which might mean ultimately more contact with America and longer.

For DNA evidence
http://books.google.com/books?id=J7...=9#v=onepage&q=polynesian dna ecuador&f=false

and
http://books.google.com/books?id=Ob...=4#v=onepage&q=polynesian dna ecuador&f=false

I've also spoken with a Maori activist who told me about Maori oral history traditions that discuss contact with the Americas. It's possible the accounts may be describing Polynesian relatives.
 
I think the weather will be temperate on the North East coast of Hawaii, in other words it should be cooler that at corresponding latitudes on the West Coast of North America and Hawaii. I think colonists from Americawould be quite comfortable there. The Island of Midway is larger that Massachusetts, and it is squarely in the temperate zone, it would be a good candidate to be the 50th state of the United States if there is a United States in this timeline. Judging from its latitude, its weather should correspond with Virginia. I think there is a cooling current coming down from Alaska, so it would be chillier than Northern California.

Look up the North Equatorial Current. It starts out towards Mexico/Central America and moves towards Asia.

In this timeline, it meets Hawaii, and is diverted northward. There will be no cooling current coming down from Alaska. There will be a tropical current moving north. Eventually, this Tropical current moves past into the northern reaches of the pacific ocean, probably to Siberia, where it makes the Kamtchatka Peninsula and Siberian coast warmer and wetter than in our timeline.

As to whether the population would be decimated by European diseases, that's an open question. If we assume some ongoing contact with Asia, not too unlikely, then there's a reasonable chance that these diseases or their asian equivalents will already be there. There's also a reasonable likelihood of tropical diseases.

The North and South Americans were a population which had been isolated for approximately 11,000 years and were extremely vulnerable. Polynesians had been isolated only for about 3000 to 4000 years and showed different levels of vulnerability on different islands. The most remote and isolated populations were particularly vulnerable and were decimated. Other communities were not.

To my mind, this is far from a settled question.
 
The bad news is that the Phororuscids were strictly new world chicky's. There's no way they could have ended up in Hawaii Continent. At best, they're an example of the way things could go.

Same with the Demon Ducks of Doom in Australia. Dromornis was a series of very big birds, the largest were heavier than the elephant birds and taller than the moa, the largest birds who ever lived. But they maxed out at half a ton. They're believed to have been predators, but that's controversial.

Could we make up some kind of giant Galliformes? There was one on New Caledonia that reached 4' tall; if we can get this family to Hawaii somehow (not sure where they originated), maybe they could do that same thing (I'm assuming that we're going with the 'no contact with other continents, so there are no mammal predators to stop it)... if they could reach 4' high on an island, maybe they could do better on a (even smallish) continent....
 

Tom Kalbfus

Banned
Could we make up some kind of giant Galliformes? There was one on New Caledonia that reached 4' tall; if we can get this family to Hawaii somehow (not sure where they originated), maybe they could do that same thing (I'm assuming that we're going with the 'no contact with other continents, so there are no mammal predators to stop it)... if they could reach 4' high on an island, maybe they could do better on a (even smallish) continent....
Perhaps for readers not in the know, you could explain what Galliformes are.
 
Could we make up some kind of giant Galliformes? There was one on New Caledonia that reached 4' tall; if we can get this family to Hawaii somehow (not sure where they originated), maybe they could do that same thing (I'm assuming that we're going with the 'no contact with other continents, so there are no mammal predators to stop it)... if they could reach 4' high on an island, maybe they could do better on a (even smallish) continent....

New Caledonia is actually the northern end of the Zealandia continent. 91% of the continent is under water now, leaving only New Zealand, New Caledonia and a few bits. It sank 20 million years ago. It was orginally part of the Gondwana supercontinent breaking away from what would now be called Australia and Antartica between 85 and 65 million years ago. The Galliformes of New Caledonia and the Moa/Ratites of New Zealand were leftovers of the Gondwana biological heritage.

As far as Tom's Hawaii goes, there are two possibilities. One is that it's a sui generis land mass, developed by crustal uplift or other geological process, and never connected to the continents or supercontinents. In which case, its going to be tough sledding. The other is that its a breakaway portion of a supercontinent, most likely Larasia, departing the asian mainland somewhere between 90 and 40 million years ago. There's a possibility that it's a breakway from Australia, but I find that a tougher proposition.

For the record, you might want to take a look at my Empire of Mu, which deals with lost continents in the Pacific and Indian Ocean.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=126440&highlight=Lemuria
 
New Caledonia is actually the northern end of the Zealandia continent. 91% of the continent is under water now, leaving only New Zealand, New Caledonia and a few bits. It sank 20 million years ago. It was orginally part of the Gondwana supercontinent breaking away from what would now be called Australia and Antartica between 85 and 65 million years ago. The Galliformes of New Caledonia and the Moa/Ratites of New Zealand were leftovers of the Gondwana biological heritage.

what I was wondering is if the Galliformes could fly to Hawaii (I'm assuming the ancestors of the big 4' one were originally flying critters). BTW, if we're assuming that Hawaii is a 'new' continent, never hooked up to any other, how old would it have to be?
 
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