The Eigth Continent "Hawaii"

Tom Kalbfus

Banned
What if there was an Eigth Continent about the size of Australia whose north-east coast is in line with where the Hawaiian Island Chain is now and whose southern most coast is right on the equator. This continent is about the size of the lower 48 states of the United States, the northern most part is at the island of Midway. All the other continents and land features are the same.

Now assuming a similar history to the OTU, when does this continent get discovered by Europeans?
Who discovers it?
Who colonizes is?
What sort of natives is this continent likely to have?

How would the existance of an eigth continent affect history post discovery?
 
Either the earth gets bigger or nothing looks the same at all. The difference in water levels and climates caused by this would be completely changed.

An interesting concept, but just saying that nothing else is different aside from a new gigantic piece of land in the north atlantic is very wrong.
 
You butterfly away all history into something unrecognizable, change weather patterns globally, and kick Alfred Wegener in the balls.

Yeah, well that's the results of most of these geographic PODs. Unfortunately that's terribly uninteresting. So, assuming similar history to OTL as to the OP specified (but we've already determined is completely ASB), I think that they would have been discovered by Europeans in the late 1600s or early 1700s, a little after Australia. As to who colonizes, your guess is as good as mine. The Dutch or English are probably the most likely, although the Spanish, Portugese, and French also could. The natives would probably be similar to the Hawaiian natives, althought there would probably be more of them. After that the butterflies could take you just about anywhere.
 
That is a major change with a POD sufficiently far enough that even with a strong butterfly net you cannot predict evolution of humanity let alone a "European" identity.

Although in an ASB sense, it's an interesting one.

Polynesian Empire?
 
A casual ammount of research on Wikipedia prompted by this thread revealed a potential...

Now the commonly accepted theory explaining the formation of the Hawaiian Island Chain is that it was caused by a the tectonic plate's movement over a stationary "hotspot" causing the formation of the various islands. However some research has questioned the stationary nature of the Hawaiian Hotspot...

Now WI instead of remaining relatively stable, the Hawaiian Hotspot moved at roughly the same rate as the tectonic plate creating not a chain of islands, but instead one MASSIVE Island? (well massive for Hawaii, let's say 15-20,000 square miles I don't think that's out of the question for this geological POD)

Basically what you've got now is the Big Island of Hawaii on steroids. Now, this probably won't butterfly away the development of humanity, it might lead to the development of some new species however...

Politically, a single large island would be much more likely to be dominated by one political entity. TTL's Hawaii is going to be a unified kingdom milennia earlier than OTL. In all likelihood this kingdom will become a major center of Polynesian civilization.

As for it's discovery by Europeans...(assuming a BIG Butterfly net) Francis Drake's voyage remains a possibility...as does Cook, Magellan etc. etc.

Plausible?
 
A casual ammount of research on Wikipedia prompted by this thread revealed a potential...

Now the commonly accepted theory explaining the formation of the Hawaiian Island Chain is that it was caused by a the tectonic plate's movement over a stationary "hotspot" causing the formation of the various islands. However some research has questioned the stationary nature of the Hawaiian Hotspot...

Now WI instead of remaining relatively stable, the Hawaiian Hotspot moved at roughly the same rate as the tectonic plate creating not a chain of islands, but instead one MASSIVE Island? (well massive for Hawaii, let's say 15-20,000 square miles I don't think that's out of the question for this geological POD)

Basically what you've got now is the Big Island of Hawaii on steroids. Now, this probably won't butterfly away the development of humanity, it might lead to the development of some new species however...

Politically, a single large island would be much more likely to be dominated by one political entity. TTL's Hawaii is going to be a unified kingdom milennia earlier than OTL. In all likelihood this kingdom will become a major center of Polynesian civilization.

As for it's discovery by Europeans...(assuming a BIG Butterfly net) Francis Drake's voyage remains a possibility...as does Cook, Magellan etc. etc.

Plausible?


Single large island Hawaii, maybe the size of Cuba, perhaps a bit larger, would seem a bit more workable. That would make for an interesting geological POD.

A continent would, as mentioned, throw everything else on earth off completely.

Interesting concept to say the least.
 
Er...you do realise Hawaii isn't anywhere near the Atlantic Ocean or Europe? It's in the central Pacific.

Oh course :eek:

Sorry. Blank moment then. I just glanced up at my world map and was looking at the wrong continent :confused:.

Nonetheless, my point still stands. A random continent in either ocean would change the whole world
 
Now WI instead of remaining relatively stable, the Hawaiian Hotspot moved at roughly the same rate as the tectonic plate creating not a chain of islands, but instead one MASSIVE Island? (well massive for Hawaii, let's say 15-20,000 square miles I don't think that's out of the question for this geological POD)

...

Plausible?
No, because, to quote Morbo, HOT SPOTS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY.

A hot spot is essentially a leak of magma from inside the mantle. Being what it is, the hot spot can't move, because by its very nature it is fixed.

We're going to need something different if you want that massive an island.
 

Oddball

Monthly Donor
Nonetheless, my point still stands. A random continent in either ocean would change the whole world

Can you prove this? :rolleyes:

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=129779

No, because, to quote Morbo, HOT SPOTS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY.

A hot spot is essentially a leak of magma from inside the mantle. Being what it is, the hot spot can't move, because by its very nature it is fixed.

We're going to need something different if you want that massive an island.

Quite true :)

A more active hot spot then?

More magma -> more lava -> more land.

Im afraid not. IMO you cannot get something continent-sized from a Hot Spot
 

Tom Kalbfus

Banned
Can you prove this? :rolleyes:

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=129779



Quite true :)



Im afraid not. IMO you cannot get something continent-sized from a Hot Spot
The Pacific Ocean has its own tectonic plate, no other ocean in the world can claim this. All other tectonic plates are associated with continents, but not the Pacific plate. All I'm saying is what if there was a continent of "Pacifica", make it a small continent no larger than Australia, or smaller than India. As for water displaced, simply subtract the amount of water than this new continent would otherwise displace, if we could say, "what if there was an eigth continent, we can also say what if there was less water so the ocean levels remain at the same level as in OTU. Also if the ocean basins were a little deeper in places, this would keep the ocean level the same as well.

I don't see any reason why this should affect European History as they aren't even aware that this continent exists. The Chinese probably don't discover it either for the same reasons they didn't discover the Americas, so everybody is blissfully unaware of this continent except for the Polynesians, who discover it. Polynesians would probably have to develop an entirely new culture to deal with this continent, Island hopping wound get them to the interior, which probably would be mostly tropical jungle and rainforest much like the Amazon in Brazil based on its latitude. There would be some fairly unusual creatures on this island much like Australia since it spent most of its time isolated from the rest of the world's land masses, it wasn't a part of Pangea in the Triassic, and existed in the center of the Pacific plate even then. I think giant flightless birds would develop.
 
well, if we are assuming that this doesn't massively change history, then you'd have a tropical large island/small continent inhabited by Polynesians. Since it's never been hooked up to any other continents, it's wildlife is likely to be like that of New Zealand... birds, bats, and no mammals (except for what the Polynesians bring), maybe even no reptiles (not sure how they'd get there). Whichever European nation colonizes it, it's likely to become a separate country eventually (a Commonwealth nation, if English). I think it's safe to say that America won't make it into a state...
 
I maintain that while the butterfly-effect purists are undoubtedly right, they are no fun, and they make all geographical PoDs impossible to work with.

Basically everyone who posts a geographical PoD pretty much needs to state right out that they are aware of the butterfly effect, and are pointedly ignoring it for the sake of discussion. Because, if it's just random effects, then the chance that humans, Europe, the cotton gin, etc would develop as per OTL is pretty much exactly the same as any other random fictional outcome we could come up with. You can call it "ASB", or you can call it "choosing the one outcome out of a near-infinity of potential outcomes that allow us to have a conversation."

That said, I think that the geographical restraints make a cuba-sized island a more logical and interesting than a continent. Something smaller makes OTL outcome a lot easier to swallow. A large continent would have real and quantifiable effects on too many things (weather patterns, monsoon seasons, climate, etc) for a butterfly net to keep it all in check without being really contrived.

And a Cuba-sized beast would be interesting in itself, particularly in the development of the alt-Hawaiian culture and it's incorporation into one of the European empires.
 
I maintain that while the butterfly-effect purists are undoubtedly right, they are no fun, and they make all geographical PoDs impossible to work with.

Agree x 50 >: (

In an effort to actually answer the OP, chances are it will be found by Magellan on his round the world tour - he may even die there instead. It will most likely start to be colonised by Spain a few decades later, though since the population would likely be Polynesian I doubt they would get far with their takeover since the Spanish colonisation method largely involved taking over control of existing civilisations, planting their own cities in a few areas and neglecting the rest until the influx of population slowly has it all settled. Chances are Drake would find the continent on his circumnavigation when he (reportedly) found San Francisco Bay, and likely would report its existence back to England where English merchants would take an interest in it. Though it likely wouldn't be a touch on New England and the Eastern Seaboard, over time you'd likely see English colonies springing up to challenge the Spanish presence, and likely the local Spaniards wouldn't have the strength to turf them out alone so it would go to the conclusion of a colonial war. Depending on when this happens affects the outcome. The French would likely appear too at some point - it would be a big continent for one power to take alone.
 
well, if we are assuming that this doesn't massively change history, then you'd have a tropical large island/small continent inhabited by Polynesians. Since it's never been hooked up to any other continents, it's wildlife is likely to be like that of New Zealand... birds, bats, and no mammals (except for what the Polynesians bring), maybe even no reptiles (not sure how they'd get there). Whichever European nation colonizes it, it's likely to become a separate country eventually (a Commonwealth nation, if English). I think it's safe to say that America won't make it into a state...

Reptiles with their slow metabolisms can float from island to island (provided they can stand seawater in the first place) for several weeks at a stretch - they can get to OTL hawai'i they can get to this new continent.

The Spanish and Portuguese will find this land very early on, as its right on the sea route from new spain to asia (unless it changes the wind patterns sufficently.

@Tom Kalbfus: the pacific is actually on several ocean plates, and like all the ocean plates its hard to tell exactly how old it is, and we have no idea of its triassic features (or even if it existed then or was formed by the merger of several other plates). A new big land mass would effect tectonics and the pacific plates flow and rotation.
 
What if there was a cluster of hot spots rather than one?

This might create an archipelago a la Indonesia.
Sometimes geologic output might be great, and some af the smaller islands fuse together creating a larger one, sometimes there is less activity and a series of smaller islands are created. I imagine that the seas between would be shallower than now, perhaps allowing coral atolls to also form.

During colonialism the islands continent of "oceania" perhaps could be carved up by a number of powers.

thoughts?
 
What if there was an Eigth Continent about the size of Australia whose north-east coast is in line with where the Hawaiian Island Chain is now and whose southern most coast is right on the equator. This continent is about the size of the lower 48 states of the United States, the northern most part is at the island of Midway. All the other continents and land features are the same.

Now assuming a similar history to the OTU, when does this continent get discovered by Europeans?
Who discovers it?
Who colonizes is?
What sort of natives is this continent likely to have?

How would the existance of an eigth continent affect history post discovery?

Well, the history is going to depend on the size and contour of the continent. Lots of peninsulas gets a watery tropical place. Mountain ranges make for rain forest and jungles, river deltas and swamps. Large empty inlands make for deserts. You could get something which is climactically not too different from Australia. Or possibly an inverted wet Mediteranean.

As to who discovers and colonizes it. That's easy. The Polynesians. Polynesians discover and occupy the Hawaii Continent sometime between 300 and 1000 CE. They arrive with a neolithic technology, that includes textiles, sail making, boat building, megalithic works, basic astronomy, navigation and warfare and a tropical agricultural package, that includes dogs, pigs, the polynesian rat, taro, coconut and eventually the sweet potato.

First stage colonization is massive population expansion, establishment and cultivation of coastal settlements, hunting and fishing. As population expands, second stage colonisation involves moving inland, founding settlements, hunting out of game, some deforestation.

Third stage would include the formation of polities and local empires, and the likelihood that the Europeans would find themselves encountering societies as developed as the Aztec, Inca and Maya. Or more developed.

There might be some interesting variables. A large polynesian population with access to resources might actually maintain more contact with other areas. There might be ongoing trade contact and trade routes with Indonesia and Asia. In which case, we can expect three things. First a more immunologically robust population than the Americas had. Second, possibly more local tropical diseases to make things difficult for Europeans. Third, a more technologically and politically sophisticated culture able to repel European influence.

Remember that Hawaii actually was a set of independent warring polities at the time of European contact, and with European weapons, the local king managed to unify it into a single state that resisted European encroachment until America took over.

Expect the Hawaiian continent to do better. We might see something that manages to hold off colonialism, somewhat like Ethiopia, Persia, China, Japan or Siam.
 
one wonders if a Hawaiian continent (that would take a lot more time to fill up with population) would slow down settlement of the other islands in the Pacific... if you know you could go to Hawaii, why bother searching for flyspeck islands in the south Pacific....
 
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