The Effects of Late Nukes on Culture?

[oshron]

hey, all. you may already know that my ASB ATL doesn't involve nukes

well, not anymore it doesn't due to previous butterflies, i decided that the discovery of nuclear power was inevitable given what was already achieved and that it's not much of a jump otherwise to figure out how to weaponize it. i ultimately decided that the first nuclear reactors come up in the mid-1960s (but the first few are extremely inefficient and dangerous compared to where they were IOTL at that time, leading to a few Chernobyl-like meltdowns) and the first detonation of an A-bomb takes place in 1991 (on the level of Fat Man and Little Boy). i have yet to decide if there are any nuclear bombings during the course of TTL

anyway, with this in mind, what does everyone think would be the effects of nuclear energy not coming up until the mid-60s and nuclear weapons not until the 90s? anyone who knows anything will be able to tell you that the very existence of nuclear weaponry had a huge influence on popular culture from then on; it may have subsided, but its no less present. there's other changes to the TL itself that would affect pop culture as well, but for now i'd like to focus on just the lack of nukes until the 90s.

perhaps the most obvious difference would be with the King of the Monsters himself, Godzilla. the whole film idea and Godzilla himself were inspired by the horror and destruction instilled by the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, right down to him being created by the radiation from nuclear detonations. no nukes, not Godzilla, and likely no equivalent until the wartime detonation of nukes ITTL, if that ever even happens. there are some other examples, like the backstory of V for Vendetta (the original comic) having to be changed in some way since, even at the latest, the final OTL publication of that comic would be two years before the first nuclear detonation ITTL

anyone else?

 

[asnys]

They would be huge, but I think we need to know more about your TL before we can say. Just to pick a random example from OTL, the US is going to be maintaining a much bigger conventional military without nuclear weapons, which means a larger draft that lasts longer. Also, it might have significant effects on the environmental movement; I don't know enough about the history of the Greens to say for sure, but I've seen a number of quotes from early environmentalists saying it was the AEC and the studies on radioactivity in the 50s that first turned them on to the issue and gave them the idea of the planet as an interconnected system.

By the way, given this is an ASB TL this may not matter, but it's pretty unlikely you could delay the first test of an A-bomb until 30 years after the first reactors were developed. Any reactor big enough to produce meaningful amounts of power can be used to produce weapons, and the possibility will be readily apparent by the time the first reactor starts operating.

 

[oshron]

the idea is that there's no major wars at the time that would seemingly require nukes either for their actual use or as a deterrent, so their use as weapons isn't addressed until much later (similar to Goddard's ideas for rockets being ignored until after WW2 and the use of them as weapons by the Nazis) but what i mainly wanted to focus on was the lack of nukes on popular culture specifically; when it gets to that, i'll make a separate thread for the effects of no nukes on militaries and what they do

 

[asnys]

the idea is that there's no major wars at the time that would seemingly require nukes either for their actual use or as a deterrent

I don't know what the political situation is like in your TL, but once they've built a few power reactors, the cost of building a bomb would be relatively minor. And even if there's no major wars, the military would be disinclined to let such a revolutionary device remain undeveloped.

What else, what else... Less apocalypticism in general, maybe. I've long wondered if the worries about peak oil, climate change, pandemics, etc. etc. can be traced to the Bomb, if that's what got the idea that everything really might just end into circulation.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

I don't know what the political situation is like in your TL, but once they've built a few power reactors, the cost of building a bomb would be relatively minor. And even if there's no major wars, the military would be disinclined to let such a revolutionary device remain undeveloped.

Note that the US built its first power reactor in 1958, some 13 years after the Bomb.

Its a lot easier to build reactors that produce plutonium in useful amounts than ones that produce electricity cost effectively.

 

[Orville_third]

No Bikinis- just "Two-pieces".
Perhaps rocket scientists are treated like OTL nuclear scientists.

 

[Deleted member 67076]

How does WW2 end in your timeline? That likely effects the development of nukes, in addition to the space race and the Cold War.

Also I assume this means a conventional invasion of Japan to end the war, in which case, could have many butterflies as well.

 

[oshron]

How does WW2 end in your timeline? That likely effects the development of nukes, in addition to the space race and the Cold War.

Also I assume this means a conventional invasion of Japan to end the war, in which case, could have many butterflies as well.

it doesn't there is no WW2 ITTL, or WW1 for that matter; there's a number of regional wars instead (though the Sino-Japanese War still takes place, and some others might that i haven't addressed just yet), and there's no Cold War as a result. this is stuff that i decided on a long time ago. i know it's ultimately implausible, but that's part of why it's ASB like i said, i want to look at what the effects of later nuclear energy and then reactors would be on TTL's popular culture in this thread

the basic idea with the development of nuclear energy and weapons later on is that there's no earth-shattering world wars to give incentive for the invention of such destructive power. nuclear reactors come up because of basic studies into that, which are largely ignored for a time because it's thought of as the stuff of pulp fiction (again, much like Goddard and his rockets and the proposals for jet aircraft were until the Allies were hit by Nazi jets and rockets IOTL). eventually, OTL's more familiar technologies like these come up, but as part of more independent studies (think university students seeing if they can build a functioning nuclear reactor as part of their thesis or something) after which the people who spurned these ideas before realize "Holy shit, this stuff actually works?!" and federal investments start coming in for such projects. this is part of how i'm accounting for the first nuclear reactor in 1965 and the first nuclear bomb in '91.

 

[phx1138]

The string of "dead teenager" songs from the '50s never happens. (I'm convinced those were a product of so many people being sure the Bomb would end the world any minute.)

There are probably fewer paranoid invasion from space movies (product of the Cold War). It's certain "The Day the Earth Stood Still" never happens: it looks directly connected to the Bomb. Probably the 1953 "War of the Worlds" isn't made, either.

I have a feeling "Mission: Impossible" doesn't get made, too.

 

[oshron]

The string of "dead teenager" songs from the '50s never happens. (I'm convinced those were a product of so many people being sure the Bomb would end the world any minute.)

There are probably fewer paranoid invasion from space movies (product of the Cold War). It's certain "The Day the Earth Stood Still" never happens: it looks directly connected to the Bomb. Probably the 1953 "War of the Worlds" isn't made, either.

I have a feeling "Mission: Impossible" doesn't get made, too.

i don't know enough about Mission Impossible to give my own input on that, but i wouldn't say that an adaptation of War of the Worlds around that time wouldn't happen, since the original had been around since the turn of the century. i could totally see the same film coming up just with the difference that there's no reference to the Manhattan Project or atomic bombing of a few tripods, these would just be replaced with something else exceptionally destructive ITTL (that could be just about anything, depending) or simply not have an equivalent event

 

[Grey Wolf]

One thing you won't have is a Nautilus under the North Pole, IIRC

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

 

[oshron]

One thing you won't have is a Nautilus under the North Pole, IIRC

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

well, yeah, that's a given

 

[phx1138]

i don't know enough about Mission Impossible to give my own input on that

Without a Cold War, IMO it's much less probable Bond is successful in film, so all the spy TV shows in the same vein are improbable. "M:I", being the most paranoid of the lot, seems least likely.

i wouldn't say that an adaptation of War of the Worlds around that time wouldn't happen

Not at that time IMO. I've always seen it in the vein of the alien invasion films, which are strongly influenced by the paranoia about the Sovs. "WotW" might get made later, & IMO wouldn't have the explicit religious overtones in the ending. (Seems likely the "Jesus saves" ending of "The Omega Man" doesn't happen, either.)

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

One thing you won't have is a Nautilus under the North Pole, IIRC

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

Why not? Air independent propulsion is still going to be a big thing. Walther cycle subs will probably be the first iteration, but fuel cell powered ones like the modern type 212a and 214 german/italian subs would be possible.

While such a sub isnt going to be able to circle the globe submerged, it COULD make a trip to the pole.